Thank you for the words of wisdom Sean.

I am learning from this experience that everything becomes a bloody minefield lol. I had someone tell me I was homophobic because I wasn't more supportive of him coming out. And then another person (all of these people I had considered friends) say well the marriage didn't really matter anyway, because he was gay, so it didn't count. Just amazingly hurtful statements and it really pushed me as I have tried everything I could do to be as supportive and understanding as possible and I already felt like I failed.

So, I have had to be so careful what I say because of strong stances in my work and community and it gets tiresome. For the record, I don't actually care that anyone is gay, I care about the actions part that got them there and how they treated others.

You pose an interesting theory. I must say I still have the hardest time wrapping my head around it. I have not questioned my sexuality at any point, so it is just such a foreign concept to me. The concept that you can be just flat out incapable of being honest. All of this has actually made me debate going back to school and taking psychology classes because it's quite fascinating. 

It makes me want to look into this phenomena deeper. What makes some gay men accept themselves and others to marry unsuspecting straight wives and then come out after decades of marriage. Typically in a cruel, hurtful manner that deeply wounds their significant other.

I appreciate your commitment to the board and continued feedback. I have so much to think about.

Thank you for writing Diff, Anon, and Lily. In reply: 

Anon wrote:

1. I am learning from this experience that everything becomes a bloody minefield lol. I had someone tell me I was homophobic because I wasn't more supportive of him coming out. And then another person (all of these people I had considered friends) say well the marriage didn't really matter anyway, because he was gay, so it didn't count. Just amazingly hurtful statements and it really pushed me as I have tried everything I could do to be as supportive and understanding as possible and I already felt like I failed.

What *ssholes. I'm very sorry these so-called "friends" have been so dismissive of your pain. As I shared in a recent interview, straight spouses often find themselves drowning in a rainbow flood of support as everyone rushes to embrace the newly out ex-husband or ex-wife. 

2. So, I have had to be so careful what I say because of strong stances in my work and community and it gets tiresome. For the record, I don't actually care that anyone is gay, I care about the actions part that got them there and how they treated others. 

Well said. Perhaps when speaking with your "friends" you can point out that if their partners lied to and cheated on them they wouldn't be attending any "Spousal Support Marches." Honesty and fidelitity are two integral pillars of any relationship, regardless of our sexual orientation.     

3. You pose an interesting theory. I must say I still have the hardest time wrapping my head around it. I have not questioned my sexuality at any point, so it is just such a foreign concept to me. The concept that you can be just flat out incapable of being honest. All of this has actually made me debate going back to school and taking psychology classes because it's quite fascinating. 

You make an excellent point: if you've never struggled with your own sexuality, then it's almost impossible to understand why some questioning/closeted spouses can't just admit "I'm gay."  As I've shared in previous posts, heterosexuals simply can't grasp how hard it is for some LGBTQ+ people to "come out." And the longer I cowered in my dark closet (35+ years), the harder it go. Every year, the fear and shame regarding my homosexuality compounded. I'm not looking for pity nor am I defending my own lies, cheating, and emotional abuse. I'm simply trying to explain why saying, "Yes honey I am gay. Thank you for asking." is so hard for us. The hardest person to come out to was my mother. I came out to my sister a few days beforehand. When D-day came with our mom, I todl my sister "I've got this" and "I'm fine!" Thankfully, she insisted on being there because I said something like, "Mom I'm g----uh...." and then started sobbing uncontrollably. A lifetime of self-loathing and shame washed over me in that instant. I was unconsollable for a good 30 minutes as the tears flowed. The fear of living that moment, particularly while destroying your lives and the lives of our innocent children, is why so many of us choose to lie, minimize, deflect, and distract from just saying "I'm gay." I hope that makes sense. 

4. It makes me want to look into this phenomena deeper. What makes some gay men accept themselves and others to marry unsuspecting straight wives and then come out after decades of marriage. Typically in a cruel, hurtful manner that deeply wounds their significant other.

For me personally, I only came out to my (then) wife because I'd been caught cheating. She was the brave one...not me. I can only imagine how difficult it was for her to challenge me, knowing this would likely end our marriage and blow up our family. She's the hero, not me. Having been through this, I understand why so many couples double down on their relationships post-discovery...because we don't want to admit that once his "secret" is known, most marriages are effectively dead. Whether it takes weeks, months, or even years to bury the relationship, when it comes to gay men married to straight women, separation/divorce are inevitable in my opinion.   

5. I appreciate your commitment to the board and continued feedback. I have so much to think about.

Thank you for sharing friend. 

Lily wrote: 

1. My thoughts in a nutshell - what kind of sexual attraction is it where at it's best it is overcoming an ick factor at the thought of actually doing it with a woman - is there an ick factor involved at the thought of sex with a man? Everything you said above indicates it is men that are attractive, women not.  

As a gay man married to a woman, at first I found the sex more mechanincal than satisfying. While I could perform with her in my 20s, perhaps out of sheer willpower, sex became a chore in my 30s, and then complete torture in my 40s. As I've shared here before, after having sex with a man I could no longer have sex with my wife. I reckon it was a mix of "ick" factor mixed with a fear of giving her an STD/STI.  

2. So what do you think is going on with the bisexual men who are routinely having sex with both men and women, is there dominating behaviour involved?  It's certainly not monogamous or an emotionally intelligent way of going about having a love life is it.

You'd have to ask a bisexual man. As a gay man I can't comment. 

3. Thinking about it there are women who want both.  Primarily they have their girlfriends, but they also want the game of flirting with and marrying men.  Like it's their god-given right.

As a society, I believe we're more comfortable with female sexual fluidity...and perhaps less so with men. For example, every female porn star is expected to perform in "same sex" scenes with women. The same doesn't apply to men, although there are more "versatile" male performers from what I understand. 

So what's my point? Yes I believe sexuality exists on a spectrum: I am gay, my brothers-in-law are straight, so there has to be something in between. I think we can all agree that the most important thing is honestly sharing all of this with potential partners. I'm only as sick as my secrets as they say in AA. By hiding and lying about my sexuality from a very young age, I robbed my future wife of the most important thing: choice. I hope that makes sense. 

If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, please post them here. Be well!

Thank you for writing Lily. In reply: 

1. Who knows how things go moving forward, but traditionally speaking I think it's just a lot easier for women to hide their homosexuality than it is for men.  I do not believe in sexual fluidity for women any more than men.  I think it likely there are more women in the closet than men.

Gay man here so please read my comments accordingly. Based on what I've read here over the years, when a closeted/questioning wife tells her husband she's attracted to women, it doesn't seem to provoke as violent a reaction as a husband telling his wife he's sexually attracted to men.    

2. Can you imagine being straight, Sean?  No more than I can imagine being gay, I'll guess.

Well I certainly tried, and failed, to be straight. So yes I have some notion of what it's like to be a heterosexual man because; I was married to a woman for over a decade; I have had sex with a woman; every form of media has bombarded me with nothing but heterosexual relationships and heterosexual love my entire life; and my parents are straight. I've lived in France for the past 20 years so, even though my language and culture are English, I do understand what it's like to be French. I guess you could say most gay people understand straight culture because we've all been immersed in it our entire lives.  

3. As I have taken in how prevalent the closet is it makes sense out of something I have wondered about since I was a teenager - why all the secrecy and confusion around sex.  A tsunami of word salad covering up the closet.

That's perhaps akin to someone saying, "What's the big deal about gambling addiction? Just stop going to the damn casino!" I reckon I can only truly understand other experiences, such as bisexual or transgendered people, if that is my own experience. Otherwise I'm a biased person projecting my own experience on them. Based on my years of exchanges here, the more repressive the family, culture, or religion, the deeper the closet. I have met many formerly evangelical American ex-husbands who watch only gay porn, only have sex with men, and are in long-term relationships with another man, who still claim they are either bisexual or heterosexual. I call it "Windows '95" syndrome; meaning they will forever run an outdated operating system. It's not that they're bad people. It's just that they're running different software. 

4. Diff outlined 3 types of 'bisexual' male. Married man having lots of sex with men while still having sex with wife.  (shall we call him gay man in closet?). Man who has multiple partners, some women as well as men.  (my guess is this is mechanical sex, no expression of his identity and no love lost on any of his partners either but let's face it, straight men do not want to have sex with men, so gay). Man who is predominantly attracted to men but can get romantic feelings about women - until it gets to the bedroom where having sex with a woman gets problematical due to the ick factor involved in PIV.  (let's call him gay). Three very different types of people, but their sexual orientation is the same. The ick factor, the ewww factor - it's real.  So is monogamy.  

You write like a gay man who only sees "gay gay gay!" All joking aside, I don't care what gender anyone sleeps with. What I care about is being open, honest, and very clear with our partner(s) about our sexual orientation(s). There should also be a very clear conversation about monogamy, monogamish, polyamourous, or totally open relationships. The main problem I've encountered here over the years are gay men who: 

- Lie about their true sexual orientations (namely an attraction to only men). 
- Abuse their wives through sexual neglect/starvation and emotional abuse.  
- Secretly cheat on their wives with men. 
- Shift the blame on their wives, making their wives feel like it's their fault the relationship failed.   

If before a woman chooses to date date/marry a man, he comes clean and says the following: 

- I have little sexual attraction to women.
- So while we may initially have sex, in the coming years sex will dimish and then stop altogether. 
- I fantasize about men, watch gay porn, and will eventually have sex with men without telling you. 
- I have struggled with my sexual orientation since childhood which will likely result in numerous emotional and psychological problems like depression or narcissistic personality disorder. 
- Struggling with my sexuality will likely result in me being verbally and emotionally abusive with you. 

What sane woman would date/marry under these circumstances?  

5. So when your 'soul mate' says he is bisexual, the straight partner believes this means their bisexual partner has chosen to be with them, that they are the one person in the world he wants to be with - not that he is wanting to date men.

Unknown. I'd suggest asking a straight partner in a long-term relationship with a bisexual male to share about it. Again, I believe the main issue is consent. Potential partners should fully disclose their sexual orientations before they embark upon long-term relationships. Most people are comfortable stating their preferences regarding marriage and children and yet the subjects of sexuality and monogamy tend to be assumed. This has to change in my opinion. 

If any straight wives have questions for a gay ex-husband, please feel free to post them here. Be well! 

Thank you for posting Diff and Canary. In response to Canary's post: 

1. Sean, I have been reading many of the messages on this forum and have a question for you about the difference between the narcissism vs the homosexuality. I guess I have a harder time wrapping my head around the years and years of lying - and the idea that SUDDENLY this person who was a compulsive liar is going to be able to have a loving, caring relationship with a man. I feel like anyone who spends this many years lying is incapable of being in a relationship with either sex.

Agreed. I myself was toxically self-centred during the final years of my troubled marriage to a woman. Based on my own relationship and after years of posting here, I believe that some closeted/questioning husbands demonstrate a form of narcissistic pesonality disorder (NPD). However, I'd recommend that straight wives consult a qualified mental health professional to determine if their husbands do indeed have NPD. As for the compulsive lying and emotional dishonesty, I tend to think of these as my first languages, just like English is my first spoken language. So while a formerly closeted ex-husband may desperately want to wake up some day suddenly farting rainbows, being blindingly honest, and fully experiencing his emotions, it took me years to re-learn honesty and authenticity.    

2. I feel like in my relationship, I was made to feel like I was the problem, and as soon as they were with a man - all was suddenly going to be love and roses. Can’t believe the years of ingrained lying suddenly goes away?  It’s not like flipping a switch and if you are with the correct sex, you suddenly are an honest person.

Agreed. In my opinion, like attracts like. Using myself as an example, in the dying days of my marriage to a woman, I was a semi-closeted emotional basket case looking for love. And guess what? My first boyfriend was also a semi-closeted emotional basket case and no, it wasn't all love and roses. So if your (future) ex-husband suffers from NPD, shifts blame, and can't tell the truth, then he'll likely find a similar partner.   

3. This has been going on 30+ years, and somehow I’m expected to believe that they are doing a 180 degree turnaround and magically able to be in a relationship? Find it hard to believe that these men know how to love anyone.

Excellent points. As Rupaul says, "If you can't love yourself, how you gonna love somebody else." As a formerly closeted husband/father who ripped apart his family, initially the shame was oftentimes overwhelming. It took me years to learn self-love and self-respect. For me personally, I clearly wasn't ready to be in a healthy relationship until I resolved my own issues. So what's my point? While a fabulously out and freshly single ex-husband may believe he's found his soulmate, these first relationships rarely last...particularly when your ex-husband suffers from emotional issues and perhaps a personality disorder. 

I hope that answers your questions Canary. If not, please feel free to post again. If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, feel free to post them here. Be well! 

Sean
I also am not sure if this is helpful, or damaging for spouses to hear my story. I have always done better with the truth - however hard that is to accept. I don’t believe all GID husbands are following the same path as my relationship - but my story is an example (I believe), of one who after destroying his initial marriage, and 10 years after, (and years of therapy), is still lying and playing games with women. And just to emphasize - the person I was in a “relationship” with is 100% believable to all people involved. If it were not for this forum I would not have believed this. I am strictly going off actions, and anything that comes out of his mouth is garbage. And the actions have simply not changed at all after 10 years. Mine had EVERY opportunity to simply keep us as friends but he refused to do that.

I ran into him a couple weeks ago and the only thing he has to say to me about the whole event is “I’m just not ready for anything” and now he’s trying to act like the whole event never even happened. Or he’s trying to act like a straight guy not interested. I was so mystified by much of this that I kept tons of communication (texts and pictures), because he had me convinced that I must have misinterpreted the whole event. That’s how good he is.  I’m not sure which - but I finally realized I can’t even be around him at all even as an acquaintance because he has a complete disconnect between the garbage that comes out of his mouth and his actions. Complete waste of my time.

Even better, there is some evidence that he has also found another woman to orbit around him. There is a woman I work with who is suddenly up in his business and acting like the overly concerned, caring friend. I just want to vomit. He is so good at this game that he actually never declares himself either way with either sex. I believe this is so he has zero accountability. I noticed with us - he was very proficient at stonewalling and being vague. Constant half truths, and statements that could be taken a multitude of ways depending on my lens. Never quite STATED his intentions despite occupying my life 100% for 6 months straight. I’m just completely shaken by how masterful the manipulation was. Even now - I can’t really point to anything definitive that would hold him emotionally accountable. NOTHING.

Im just so angry that I wasted a second on this guy - and continue to waste my time by even posting here. But feel I need to get it off my chest and process. I realize this rationally but it’s still difficult to not ruminate about how naive I was and how disrespectful this was.

Oh, and at the VERY end the way he tried to tell me (only when backed into a complete corner), was he dropped the names of 3-4 other men I work with who are married with kids. These are also men I’ve known over the span of around 10 years who are seemingly the most honest, married men I know. The only reason I picked up on it was he has a physical type that is subtle (very very slightly effeminate). One of the men I have worked with for 10 years and I know his wife and children. We work in a very high powered field, and one that requires a high level of honesty. So instead of just being friends with me from the start - he actually was such a coward that he had the nerve to tell me by “outing” 4-5 other men I work with. He never once has claimed anything for himself or his own actions but only vaguely by association of his “friendships”. . I was so oblivious when he started dropping these names that it took me several weeks to realize what he was trying to tell me.  It was very subtle. So subtle that I actually was around these men and directly talking to them, and convinced myself that he was not dropping these names because it couldn’t be true.
And I might add that one of these men has since dropped into my room at work trying to strike up a conversation about work gossip. Which he normally NEVER does. And I’m pretty sure what he was doing was fishing around to determine if he was at risk of being outed. (I have never said anything to ANYONE). But now I’m carrying around this crap about multiple dishonest men I work with. And I’m still shocked by how common this is and how it has been going on for years. And these men are all in relatively high up positions and very well respected.
And the other sad thing about this is I was one of the few people at work who was likely giving him the benefit of the doubt. I think people may know and stay clear of him. I’m the only person who was assuming someone would tend towards honesty. Part of this is I tend to be gullible and honest to a fault.

Last edited by Canary2 (April 25, 2023 11:58 am)