PinkLady, I don't have words for you. Just know I'm holding a place in my heart for you.

Thank you for writing Pink and Confused. In response to Pink's last posts: 

1. Thank you so much for your reply Sean. Although you don’t claim to be a professional I look up to you as abit of a GID expert! So your words mean a lot thank you!

That's very kind of you, although I would suggest you to review all of this with a mental health professional.

2. I am going to get checked for STDS I actually have the testing kit and am going to do that today.

That's an excellent idea. I would also urge both you and other straight spouses to use condoms and practice only safe sex with your closeted/questioning husbands. These men often re-engage sexually with their wives during the post-conflict "honeymoon" or "love bombing" stage. 

3. The sauna he claims he went to is close to our house. It’s one that has men only/women only and mixed days. I did say before he went there’s something strange about that place. He laughed at me. The weird thing is, this particular sauna asks for online booking to be made before entry.

Ok so it's a private sex club or a club for swingers. 

4. He claims he didn’t book in and paid cash. The guy on the answer machine to the sauna even says “please do not turn up without a booking because you will not be let in."

Your husband is lying of course. 

5. After he told me about the assault I said we must call the sauna and report this. He agreed. This was on the Sunday night. On Monday morning I called the sauna but the guy on reception didn’t seem to want to give me much information and said my partner must come into the sauna personally to report the assault. I called my partner and told him I’ve spoken to the sauna. He went mad at me. “You should not have called them! I am not reporting it now! You’ve taken this away from me how dare you!”  I was confused because the night before he agreed to report it and agreed for me to call them to ask if we could come in for a chat about the assault. So I’ve just been expected to believe him, even though he had no booking and didn’t want to report it. How am I supposed to just believe this?

It's time to stop believing him because clearly he's constitutionally incapable of honesty when speaking about his attraction to men. As I discussed in my recent podcast interviews with "Our Path", I urge straight spouses to gage their husband's honesty regarding sex and his sexuality. A 10/10 is complete honesty, 5/10 is partial honesty, and 0/10 means a pathological liar. Please keep in mind that I'm referring to a husband's honesty only with regards to his sexuality, not his honesty in general. If your husband has scored either a 1-2/10, then 80-90% of everything he says regarding to his homosexuality is fabricated/lies. 

6. I have googled saunas in the area and there’s another one known as a gay sauna also close to my house. I believe this is the one he really went to but I don’t know for sure where he was that day. 

100% agree with you that he went to a gay sauna, hooked up with another man, and then completely lost his sh*t... a not uncommon response for deeply closeted men who have sex for the first time with other men.  

7. Since the whole sauna story, he’s been saying he wants to move away from the city we live in. I find this strange. All of a sudden he wants to leave the city.

I reckon he's having a panic response. 

8. I’ve also googled local gay cruising spots and there is one literally at the end of my road!! It makes sense to me now why he wanted to keep popping to the shops!

Body shaving, sexy underwear, a sudden interest in physical fitness, and lots of unexplained absences often suggest a husband is cheating. So sorry that he's putting you through all of this my friend. Please keep coming back and sharing.   

Confused wrote: 

1. I'm slightly fascinated by what you said, "For 32+ years I would have said he was one of the most honest men I know. Isn’t that crazy?" No. My husband is almost rigid in his rule following honesty.

With a notable exception: he's pathologically dishonest when discussing his attraction to men. 

2. If he is presented with 2 options and there is ANY CHANCE someone might perceive him as doing something unethical on one of them, he chooses the other. Even if it's to our detriment. He never wants to be looked at as being someone who would do the wrong thing.

Erm...not entirely true. He has lied to you for your entire relationship. 

3. Our businesses intersect in some random ways - ways that he COULD throw me some work and it would make us make a lot of money. And it would be completely legal and ethical, but the optics maybe wouldn't be ideal. He chooses not to do it. When we were dating he and his roommate owned their house together. His roommate got married and my then boyfriend bought him out. 3 years later we were married and we sold the house for 80K more than it was valued for when he bought his roommate out- and it took everything I could tomcomvince him that that was our equity. He had a check written and ready to go splitting that money with the former roommate.

I believe this is referred to as "splitting" and it happens quite often with closeted men. They act one way at work and yet have a completely different persona online for example. 

4. But then there are ways he's very secretive - not sharing what medication he's on.

Lie #1. 

5. Starting smoking recently. Not telling me he's paid off the car.

Lies #2 and #3.

6. Insisting on separate checking accounts. Secrets. Secrets. Which I thought was just a desire for privacy. Now I think maybe there were elements of dishonesty. 

Wow. More lies. What you call "secrets" I refer to as "lies." 

7. Funnily, with each of our children i never found out what the sex was and he did. And he successfully kept it a secret. Each of the 3 times. I would jokingly say, *I'm not sure what that says about our marriage. That he can keep a secret like that so we'll." Lord, if I only knew... He actually used his honesty as an excise for his behavior when caught: " I just always do the right thing. I wanted to do something bad."

I guess the new rule going forward should be as follows: whenever his mouth is moving and words are coming out that pertain to his cheating or homosexuality, he's lying. So perhaps it's time to stop turning to him for answers with regards to his sexuality. As I wrote to Pink (see above), closted/questioning husbands are constitutionally incapable of being honest when it comes to their sexuality. 

8. Question: my husband has recently told me that his love language is physical touch and I was shocked. How can that be true when you don't like sex?

Because he's lying. Let's revisit the new rule: whenever your husband is talking about his sex or sexuality - in this case his love language - he's lying. Get ready for the blame shift to keep you off balance...

9. But he says I never want to hold hands. And he DOES want to hold hands all the time. Snuggle with the kids. Snuggle (with his head on my chest in a way that I've hated because I've found it submissive) after sex.  It's not that it's preformative or PDA. It's not for looks for everyone else. It's in the privacy of our home. He wants to hold hands in the car all the time. He touches my back and rubs it. He puts his hand on my thigh. I wonder if I'm a security blanket. Maybe grounding him? Assuring him I'm still here. That he's ok. How can touch be so important and sex be a non entity? 

Again, he's lying, performing, and manipulating you my friend. He's performing for both you and your kids but I'm sure he's less than a Casanova in the bedroom, but in an indirect and cutting way, "I'm not sure what happened to my erection. Did you [wife] gain weight?" Feel free to confirm. Let's take a step back and review what he's doing here: 

- Lie: My love language is touch. 
- Blame shift: You never want to hold hands. 
- Distract/Manipulate: Constantly touching you and/or holding your hand...perhaps for the first time.  

Another common example is the husband who pretends to want sex with his wife and yet penis-in-vagina sex never happens. 

- Lie: I want to have sex and/or I'm so attracted to you. 
- Blame shift: Before we have sex, you need to [insert bullsh*t condition here to kill her libido.] 
- Distract/Manipulate: He performs oral sex or has you shove another dildo up his *ss. But he can't maintain an erection so you never get your needs met. 

10. As I'm typing this he's asking me to come upstairs with him. I'm not sure how to avoid sex now that I know things. 

I reckon he's initiating (and likely not finishing) sex with you because he senses the shift in your relationship. There is also a very strong possiblity that he's reading these posts. 

11. I agree it is traumatic. I'm not even sure my body has accepted this yet. Yes, the imagery knocks the breath out of me. I've allowed myself to see the images from 20 years ago, the blow jobs, the cock ring, the penetration. Maybe it's easier because it was 20 years ago. I've pictured him on his knees in front of our neighbor, but my brain stays behind him, I can't mentally walk around to see more, to picture what he's doing there. I CANNOT IMAGINE having the pictures. I might die. And even though I can now assume that knees werent the only place he was recently, my brain refuses to accept that. SURELY that didn't happen.

Sounds like you're in shock which is totally understandable. It takes time for your heart and soul to understand the man you thought you married is a completely different person. 

12. When I got tested for STDs he said, there's no way you could get any! I didn't do anything that you could get an STD from. So I've used that as a reason to tell myself it didn't happen.  Why do I hold in to that as if it's a truth when I know so much more was lies? How can I not admit that that's probably a lie too?

Let's return to our rule: whenever your husband is speaking about sex or sexuality, he's lying. 

13. I'm holding on to Sean's words that it's not intentionally evil even though it feels that way. I talked with my therapist about this yesterday because I believe that narcissism by it's nature IS EVIL. and it feels intentional. Narcissists are evil people. My husband is neglectful, sure. He's aloof, yeah. But he's a nice guy!

Nice husbands are honest, loving, monogamous, and enjoy sex with their wives. By all accounts, your husband is none of these things.  

14. He can't possibly be narcissistic because he's not evil. She said (and I hope I understood this right...it was. Confusing because I don't identify with it), I do think he loves you. He loves you the only way he knows how and it's the greatest love he has. His choice of loving you wasn't a lie for him. But it's not even close to the spectrum of love that non narcissistic people experience. It's not the love you thought he was giving. It's not the same kind of love. And at the core of that love is the manipulation and the narcissist traits. The focus on self. He uses those core things to hold onto the love. It's at the core of who he is. Love isn't at the core.

I agree. 

15. It helps me to feel better knowing that this is how they are born. That it isn't a choice or even something they are conscious of. Its called personality disorder because his personality is HIM. It's not like OCD and a coping mechanism he came to over time. It's as much a part of him as his hazel eyes.

Perhaps.

16. I may be VERY wrong but I think that they are loving us the only way they know how. And it could be that the love is based on how we make THEM feel and what we give them rather than a love the way we experience it- a sharing of something. They don't love bomb because they are thinking, I need to do this to keep her trapped.

I agree. 

17. They do it because they want to keep us because we make them feel good. Not because they want us to feel good. But they truly think that's love.  We (now!) hear and feel that manipulation and feel like it's EVIL. Because that's what we know manipulation to be. But they don't know how to separate manipulation from love. They are too intertwined for them.

Well said! 

18. And as I'm typing this I'm wondering if that that's what THEY think we are doing, too, when we express our love and kindness. If they think it's for our own personal game and not because we are giving of ourselves as an expression of love?  I don't know if I've got this right, but I'm digging into it because I just can't reconcile the EVILNESS of this with the person that I do find to be very loving sometimes.

It might take time to understand that perhaps your husband never loved you because he's never truly loved himself. In fact, he's lived a lie for so long that he's become the lie. I hope that makes sense on some level.  

19. My daughter has been having breakdowns lately- I guess she can sense my shift. He won't talk with her about this and is "just acting like it didn't happen." He wants her to climb in his lap and snuggle him like she always has and she said she's just grossed out by him.

I'm so sorry your daughter is suffering my friend. Children are the innocent victims of these toxic marriages. I would recommend getting her into therapy as soon as possible.  

20. And she has a gay dear friend who is a confidant so thats not homophobia. She, too, has images she cannot get away from).  She sobbed to me the other day and I'm trying to walk this VERY FINE line between being honest with her (because that's what she needs when she's faced with such dishonesty) and appearing to be leaning on her for my own support or giving her too much information as a child in this situation.

She's too young to support you my friend. I recommend getting her into counselling. 

21. Imagine discussing sexual acts with a child who hasn't experienced these things herself. So screwed up. She told me that she has too much going on in her brain and can't sort it out.

Tech-savvy kids often know (and keep) dad's secrets for years before mom finds out. I'm very sorry she's suffering. 

22. Asked me, did I notice that her daddy seems fascinated by her dear friend. She said, I don't think he's attracted to him, but he's so OUT (he dresses as Elsa for Halloween. He wears drag type shoes and is so embracing and unapologetic of who he is). She said, daddys always commenting about him.... Do you think he's envious that he gets to be that person and daddy wishes he could be? 

Yes. 

23. I encouraged her to write him a letter. I told her she could add to it over days or weeks. Send it to him or tear it up. But just getting it out of her head should help. So she did a first draft and sent it to me. It was awful  so so sad. So full of rejection. it were the words, "I am starting to struggle. i catch myself wondering what i even am to you. a daughter or just a cover. Did you ever really want me?" I'm over here questioning my marriage. She's literally questioning her existence.

I think your daughter should be in therapy. If I may be blunt, you're wrongly putting her in the middle of this. The last thing you want is for your husband to turn all of his narcissistic weapons on his 16-year-old daughter. She's too young to understand what's happening my friend. She is neither your best friend nor confidante. She's a child. She needs to get out of the pool because mom and dad are clearly drowning. Sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries.  

24. God this is so f8cking traumatic.

I'm so very sorry you and your children are suffering my friend. Please keep coming back or perhaps start your own thread so that the kind members here can share their thoughts. Be well. 

Last edited by Sean01 (November 17, 2022 11:18 am)

Hi Sean

Thank you again for your helpful reply

I have replied to some of your comments with some more details.

The sauna he claims he went to is close to our house. It’s one that has men only/women only and mixed days. I did say before he went there’s something strange about that place. He laughed at me. The weird thing is, this particular sauna asks for online booking to be made before entry.

Ok so it's a private sex club or a club for swingers.

- I have no idea but the day he went on was the men only day. He has been there early on in our relationship twice. But those two times he went with a friend from work as far as I know. At least that’s what he told me back then. When I spoke to the receptionist he did confirm the men walk around naked “but not in a gay way”. That was his words. Could he have possibly went to have sex with a woman? If it’s a private sex club. Just strange that he went on men only day.

4. He claims he didn’t book in and paid cash. The guy on the answer machine to the sauna even says “please do not turn up without a booking because you will not be let in."

Your husband is lying of course.

- this is why I’ve found it so hard to believe him. The weeks and months even leading up to the sauna experience, he just seemed different. Full of energy and so excited for life. I’d never seen him like this in the 12 years we’ve been together. That’s when I starting getting suspicious. My intuition told me something was off and when I confronted him about cheating he told me I was paranoid and crazy. That I get too emotional and make up my own stories in my head.

5. After he told me about the assault I said we must call the sauna and report this. He agreed. This was on the Sunday night. On Monday morning I called the sauna but the guy on reception didn’t seem to want to give me much information and said my partner must come into the sauna personally to report the assault. I called my partner and told him I’ve spoken to the sauna. He went mad at me. “You should not have called them! I am not reporting it now! You’ve taken this away from me how dare you!”  I was confused because the night before he agreed to report it and agreed for me to call them to ask if we could come in for a chat about the assault. So I’ve just been expected to believe him, even though he had no booking and didn’t want to report it. How am I supposed to just believe this?

It's time to stop believing him because clearly he's constitutionally incapable of honesty when speaking about his attraction to men. As I discussed in my recent podcast interviews with "Our Path", I urge straight spouses to gage their husband's honesty regarding sex and his sexuality. A 10/10 is complete honesty, 5/10 is partial honesty, and 0/10 means a pathological liar. Please keep in mind that I'm referring to a husband's honesty only with regards to his sexuality, not his honesty in general. If your husband has scored either a 1-2/10, then 80-90% of everything he says regarding to his homosexuality is fabricated/lies.

-  I actually listened to the podcast before coming here, I came across it on my Google search. I was literally a few minutes into listening and I couldn’t believe how much resonated with me and my relationship. I’ve since read every page on this thread and I am in between thinking “no way this can’t be happening to me!” And “oh my god this whole relationship has been a lie”
I’ve never suspected that he would cheat. Definitely not be GID. At the start of our relationship I had low self esteem and was jealous if he looked in another girls direction. But I’ve matured and grown since becoming a mother and now realise I was being ridiculous. He’s always made me believe he would never cheat because his dad did and he saw what it did to his family. He says he’s a good man and gave up everything for me. I wonder what he means by giving up everything. On our first date he was wearing his friends trainers that he’d borrowed. That same friend later came out as gay. I’m even wondering if he was a discreet lover before me. My mind is going crazy trying to piece it all together.

6. I have googled saunas in the area and there’s another one known as a gay sauna also close to my house. I believe this is the one he really went to but I don’t know for sure where he was that day.

100% agree with you that he went to a gay sauna, hooked up with another man, and then completely lost his sh*t... a not uncommon response for deeply closeted men who have sex for the first time with other men. 

- you said gay in denial men can’t perform after gay sex. Last night he woke me up for sex (after 2 weeks of nothing, no hugs or kisses nothing) it was quite mechanical but he did ask if I wanted the dildo and I said no. I wanted sleep that’s what I wanted! He didn’t manage to finish during intercourse I had to finish him, well tried to with my hand, but he took over and finished himself. Come to think of it, from the beginning of our relationship he’s never been too keen to fully undress me for sex. I can recall having my top on most of the time. It’s strange because I’ve always thought he was into boobs and that’s why he had so many Nuts mags. I even had a breast enlargement 10 years ago because I was self conscious. He’s never really paid any extra attention to them. When I walked in on him masturbating he at first said he was watching girls showing their boobs. I just still can’t get over him then changing it to - “how do you know it wasn’t a man?” …. What the actual fuck what kind of comment is that?!

7. Since the whole sauna story, he’s been saying he wants to move away from the city we live in. I find this strange. All of a sudden he wants to leave the city.

I reckon he's having a panic response.

- this was my exact thought aswell. I asked him why all of a sudden he wants to move. He didn’t like that I was questioning it and said that if I love him I should want to support his wishes. Because he would do the same for me.

8. I’ve also googled local gay cruising spots and there is one literally at the end of my road!! It makes sense to me now why he wanted to keep popping to the shops!

Body shaving, sexy underwear, a sudden interest in physical fitness, and lots of unexplained absences often suggest a husband is cheating. So sorry that he's putting you through all of this my friend. Please keep coming back and sharing.   

- he’s been doing all of this. Not so many unexplained absences but he has left home after an argument  a few times to stay at his mums. A couple of weeks ago he kept talking about how he wanted to get fit, have a few sun beds, have his teeth whitened and get a hair transplant. He works in Essex so he’s probably seeing a lot of fit, tanned, teethy guys. I don’t know if it’s since he’s been working there he’s realised he’s gay because he’s finding these guys attractive. I know you said you knew from age 5 but I just can’t believe that he could’ve known. I’ve never ever questioned how sexuality until now. It was after the sauna, my aunt said maybe he’s bi and I was like nooooo way!! Then the masturbating and him asking me “how do you know I weren’t watching a man?”  My aunt Reckons no straight man would even THINK to ask that question. Maybe he was watching a man. I’m so so confused and alone right now.

Thank you Sean for your help and advice it’s really appreciated. You give us all hope!

Last edited by Pinklady (November 18, 2022 6:03 am)

Sean01 - I see you have a Podcast! I would love to listen. Please share the details. I'm still trying to narrow down my questions for you! Thank you for your help. 

Thank you for posting everyone. In reply: 

Gwen wrote: ​Sean01 - I see you have a Podcast! I would love to listen. Please share the details. I'm still trying to narrow down my questions for you! Thank you for your help. 

Sorry no podcast my friend. But I have been interviewed by "Our Path." Here are the links: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath
S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath

ImSoConfused wrote: ​I'm getting out. It hurts, but I'm getting out. I met with an attorney yesterday. It was disheartening- basically, because I've been able to take care of us so well financially, I can't expect much from that.  I have 2 more appointments coming up. The ball is rolling. There MAY have been a chance of reconciling if there had been honesty. Probably not, but that was the only shot. Now that I know that the lies started before we married, I'm out. There's no saving this. It is going to happen. The attorney suggested I get my ducks in a row and so that's what I'm doing. Opening new LLC for my business, etc. Just a lot to work out but I'm formulating a plan. Thanks for leaning on me though.

Thank you for sharing friend. I'm not going to lie, divorce is hell. BUT given your husband's history, your troubled relationship, and (recently) how this is affecting your children, you're doing the right thing...for everyone. You're freeing yourself and your children of this troubled man. And, who knows, your future ex-husband might find the courage to come out and live honestly. Please come back and share this latest chapter in your journey. Good luck! 

Last edited by Sean01 (November 19, 2022 2:45 am)