Sean wrote:

Red flag. Most younger gay men have kissed women, because kissing is easy and we're doing what's expected of us (read: date women). It's also easy to caresse, massage, and perform oral sex on a woman. But boners, or the lack thereof, don't lie. What we as gay men find "overwhelming" is penis-in-vagina sex because we're not interested in sex with vaginas, nor the women attached to them. 

Sean, I'm curious about this. While our sex was dysfunctional, with him having to watch porn beforehand in secret to perform, and preferring anal sex to the point of sexual abuse,  he did at times perform oral sex on me. He could never bring himself to caress me, though. I don't remember him ever touching my breasts our entire marriage. But oral sex he could do. It seemed to me like he was doing things he thought he "had" to do to pass - he obviously wasn't "into" any of it. So I'm very interested in why it's easy for a gay man to perform oral sex on a woman. 

One of the strange things during our marriage was that he usually had to pull out and finish himself off manually when he did put his penis in my vagina. There were some times he could finish in my vagina (we did have three kids), but most of the time if he couldn't have anal sex, he'd finish manually. I think the times he could finish in my vagina were when he brought himself to the brink with porn beforehand. I was just a masturbatory tool. 

His preferred sex was me on my side, laying faced away from him, while he penetrated me anally. Is it easier to pretend you're with a man that way? 

Sean,

Thanks for answering my questions. 

Yes, we conceived our three children when we were in our twenties and early thirties. He knew I wanted children, although he did not particularly want children and did not participate in their care in any meaningful way. I got pregnant easily, so it didn't take much performance on his part.

I think my ex went out of his way to have "regular" sex with me so I wouldn't get suspicious. At least once a week. But he needed porn to get an erection and I really think he'd bring himself to the edge of ejaculation before coming to bed to finish off with me as a sex toy. But the oral sex confused me. I would have thought that gay men couldn't stand to get that close to a woman's vagina. But your explanation makes sense. It's mainly PIV they want to avoid. 

I do suspect my ex is a bottom. He wanted me to penetrate him with a strap-on and appeared emotionally moved by it, which struck me as strange at the time. It was like that was real intimacy, and everything else we'd ever done didn't count. 

Thank you for writing everyone. In reply: 

Beastie wrote:

1. Thanks for answering my questions. 

My pleasure. 

2. Yes, we conceived our three children when we were in our twenties and early thirties. He knew I wanted children, although he did not particularly want children and did not participate in their care in any meaningful way. I got pregnant easily, so it didn't take much performance on his part.

This is quite common. 

3. I think my ex went out of his way to have "regular" sex with me so I wouldn't get suspicious. At least once a week. But he needed porn to get an erection and I really think he'd bring himself to the edge of ejaculation before coming to bed to finish off with me as a sex toy.

How monstrous. 

4. But the oral sex confused me. I would have thought that gay men couldn't stand to get that close to a woman's vagina. But your explanation makes sense. It's mainly PIV [penis-in-vagina sex] they want to avoid. 

Correct.

5. I do suspect my ex is a bottom. [The gay male who prefers to be penetrated anally.] He wanted me to penetrate him with a strap-on and appeared emotionally moved by it, which struck me as strange at the time. It was like that was real intimacy, and everything else we'd ever done didn't count. 

You make a very good point here. Following discovery of a husband's homosexuality, most couples attempt a form of mixed-orientation-marriage (also referred to as "MOMs"). Many try to incorporate strap ons or sex toys, just as you've described above. Other couples attempt open marriages or threesomes. Few MOMs survive more than two years. The outcome is usually as follows: the straight wife gets little to nothing out of this new "exploration" and is often horrified to discover just how much her questioning husband enjoys having sex with men and/or being penetrated.  

Crystal wrote: 

1. He [gay ex-husband] claimed that he was not given a choice when sexually molested by another boy. I'm not to sure what he means by "choice". I'm guessing since it was forced on him he didn't get to choose if molester was male/female when this was done to him. Or he didn't have a choice of the entire thing, which is correct.

As I've written before, there are two possibilities: 1. He's telling the truth; 2. He's lying. If your ex-husband lied for most of your relationship, I think it's #2. Most children go through a time of innocent sexual exploration and the same is true for little gay boys. It certainly was for me as I had sexual play with my best male friend at the time. But from a very young age, we are taught that our form of sexual play is wrong or perhaps even evil. While I've always maintained that childhood sexual abuse does happen and that it's rightfully illegal, things get complicated with closeted/questioning husbands. In my opinion, I believe that claims of "sexual abuse made me text that guy for 2 weeks, meet him in a hotel room, and have gay sex..." are nothing more than canards. 

2. No one makes a choice to be sexually molested. It is usually forced.

True! But first we need to ask, "Did my pathologically dishonest husband fabricate the entire story?"  

3. With all the reading I've done on this, I can agree with you that he was already gay and this incident did not "make" him gay.

...if it happened at all. 

4. What he does claim is that incident taught him how to lie because he had to lie and not disclose what had happened to him out of shame. Feeling for the same sex were already there even as a young child, but had to be suppressed. 

Again, that's his spin on things. 

5. He came from a broken family...

Again, so he says. I'm always weary of cheating, closeted gay husbands playing victim.  

6. ...so he had to learn how to lie at a very young age and carried it through into adulthood.

And he could be lying about this abuse history as well, particularly if he broke out the tears when you were threatening separation/divorce. I often tell straight spouses to gage a closted husband's honesty over the course of the relationship. I give them a scale: 10/10 is saint-like honesty; 5/10 is the average person; and 0/10 signifies pathological dishonesty. I maintain that if he's scoring something like a 2/10 when it comes to talking about his sexuality, then 20% of this abuse story is probably true and 80% is either false or exaggerated. Just sayin'

7. I am sure being released from this secret that is carried for years is freeing for the gay spouse when they get to finally confess that they are gay.

It's certainly a relief to come out, particularly after decades in the closet. But I've learned that coming out is just the beginning of the journey. 

Thanks for posting friends. If you have any questions for a gay ex-husband, feel free to post them here. 

Last edited by Sean (May 23, 2022 3:48 pm)

Thank you for posting Meredith, although I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. In reply: 

1. I’m new here and I posted last week a quick summary (“Crushed and Heartbroken”) of what has transpired as of recently. Long story short, 3 years ago I found emails from my boyfriend to random men on CL [Craig's List]. All of these emails were sent while I was out of town. When I caught him, he swore up and down they weren’t from him and he must have been hacked.

Lie. Question: what exactly was he emailing these men? 

2. I didn’t believe him, but I figured it was a phase and perhaps he would grow out of it after being caught.

Cheating is like an iceberg, meaning 9/10ths often remains below water. Setting aside the issue of his sexuality, please get tested for STDs/STIs and only use condoms when having sex with your boyfriend. I'd also ask your boyfriend to get tested and if he tries to weasel his way out of it, that's confirmation he's doing much more than just swapping email recipes with these men. 

3. Last week, I snooped through his phone and found a fake email with messages sent out saying “DL fit vers top” that were sent while he was out of town.

Wow. For a self-identified straight man, he's very well-versed in gay hook-up slang. While I'm a bit out of practice, I believe his moniker means:

DL = down low, aka closeted man in a relationship with a woman seeks discreet hook ups  
vers top = versatile top, meaning he can either penetrate another man or be penetrated but prefers to top/penetrate others

4. I confronted him...

Good for you. 

5. ...and he finally owned up to the fact that he sent them, but insisted that he didn’t have sex with anyone...

Bullsh*t. 

6. ...and instead it was just something that turned him on. I asked why the fake email and he said that “it added to the excitement,” but he kept saying he was not gay.

Ok. Let's use his logic on some other, more g-rated, situations and see if it adds up: 

- I phone a lot of pizza delivery places but never place an order and don't really like pizza. I just get a thrill from calling them. [Bullsh*t]
- I go to a lot of bakeries and just sniff the pastries, but I've never eaten one. [Bullsh*t] 
- I spend my days down at the local pool, wear a lot of bathing suits, but I've never gone swimming. [More bullsh*t]

So his logic doesn't stand up in my opinion. One way to look at your situation more objectively is to pretend your best (female) friend, let's call her Brenda, tells you the following secret about her boyfriend Steve: 

"For the past three years, Steve has been sending random gay guys he found on Craig's List sexual emails from a fake email account that he hid from me. Yesterday I found another email address that he used during business trips, apparently looking for discreet sexual encounters with other men. But he swears he isn't gay. What do you think?" 

What would you say to Brenda? 

7. I asked more questions and probed but he still said he wasn’t gay, and to my surprise (very new info to me after 6 years together) he brought that he was molested as a child and that could be the cause for these feelings of being turned on by men.

Wow. It's incredible how much these guys all follow the same script. When a closeted husband/boyfriend's back is  up against the wall and/or his straight partner is threatening separation/divorce, they all break out the same "I was abused" sob story. As I wrote to Crystal in my last post (see above), if he's lied your entire relationship, you don't have to automatically believe his claims of "abuse made me gay." Moreover there are no credible scientific studies proving abuse results in homosexuality. I reckon it's a smoke screen. 

8. He cried and it’s hard not to believe him, but from what I’m reading this could be something a pathological liar might say.

Correct. 

9. What are your thoughts?

I think he's cheating on you, has been cheating on you for years, and I also think he fabricated this abuse story to distract you while deftly making himself the victim. I also think he's putting you at risk every time you have unprotected sex. 

10. PS - he used to beg for anal. I shut it down everytime (it’s not my thing)...

Red flag. Let's review his logic using this new information: he begs you for anal; you won't perform anal on him because it doesn't interest you; for years he's been email gay men about anal sex; and yet claims he's never cheated on you. In what universe does his logic make sense? 

11. ...but sex with him is hard to come by (maybe once a month). Especially when he’s drunk does he want to do anal but I shut him down and he usually ends up upset.

More red flags. I maintain that a lack of interest in sex with a girlfriend/wife is one of the biggest red flags in gay/straight relationships. Imagine what your sex life will be in 5, 10, or even 15 years.  

12. He also refuses to hold my hand in public because he says he “runs warm” and doesn’t want his hand to get clammy… strange but not sure if these are red flags or not.

What a jerk. Sigh. You deserve so much better Meredith. He certainly ticks many (if not all) of the pink boxes. I'd listen to these podcasts: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath
S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath

as I discuss many of the things you've described. First and foremost, please get tested for STDs/STIs and only practice safe sex with your boyfriend. If he follows the closeted boyfriend script, he's going to love bomb you for the next few weeks/months to secure you back in the relationship. This means he's going to try to have sex with you...a lot. It normally doesn't last more than 2-3 months but during this time, please insist he use condoms. No boyfriend is worth risking your health and safety. 

So let's review what you shared. Your boyfriend:  

- Has been emailing gay men for years
- He emails gay men under the pen name "DL fit vers top"
- He lied to you and/or hid these messages for years  
- He messages men asking for sex when traveling and/or away from home
- He doesn't seem interested in sex with you
- He prefers anal, particularly when drunk
- He refuses to hold your hand in public
- He claims childhood abuse is why he emails men, yet also claims he's never had sex with a man

So he is: a liar; potentially a closeted gay men; emotionally unstable; might have a drinking problem (a bit of a supposition on my part); isn't much of a lover; and gets pissy when you won't perform anal sex on him...particularly when he's drunk. Why are you still with this loser?

Last edited by Sean (May 25, 2022 3:46 am)

Thank you for writing Meredith. In reply: 

1. I started listening to the “Narcissist in Recovery” podcast - thank you for that resource! And thank you for your response. I know you’re a stranger and we’ll probably never meet, but a perspective from someone else that might have gone through the same thing is so incredibly helpful, even if you were the one in the wrong.

Happy to help in some way, although I'm still very sorry he's putting you through all of this. 

2. The emails I found 3 years ago included the same lingo as what I found a week ago, except more detailed. Selfies were included as well as his age, ethnicity… I knew there was no way it wasn’t him, but I was really hoping it was just a phase.

If I may be blunt, you're being rather vague with your answers which is understandable. While I'm not a mental health professional, this may suggest you're still in shock, perhaps lying to yourself, bargaining with yourself, and/or trying to protect him. So let me be very clear with my follow-up questions: 

a. Did he discuss gay sex and gay sexual acts in these emails? 
b. Did these emails clearly have a goal: namely meeting men for sex? 
c. Were the photos naked photos of him in what looked like different sexual positions? 

Only respond if you're ready my friend. 

3. Your “drinking problem” comment resonates with me because he has had legal issues with drinking on more than one occasion. He now smokes pot every night and unfortunately living with someone who needs to rely on a substance wasn’t exactly what I signed up for either.

These are massive red flags my friend and go beyond the issue of his sexuality. I'd recommend you seek professional help for yourself and ask the counsellor about addictions/alcoholism. Things often get much much worse before they get better. 

4. I guess after 5 years of being with someone, I’m was hoping there could be some way to fix this.

Few of us were just ready to walk away from long-term relationships, especially when our partners are clearly suffering. That just means you're a good person in my opinion. If however you are the child of parents who suffered from addictions, personality disorders, or depression, you might with to explore co-dependency with a qualified counsellor. Many straight wives/girlfriends are co-dependents, meaning they are attracted to broken people and make it their life's purpose to "fix" them.  

5. I’m in my late 20’s and while everyone around me is getting married, I’m trying to figure out if I should dump my possibly gay-bf.

There is little doubt in my mind that he's gay-in-denial and likely a burgeoning addict of some kind. In addition to the "Brenda" exercise that I wrote above, namely imaging that your best friend presented you with the same set of facts and responding, another trick to detach from your situation would be to write a "help wanted" ad for a boyfriend or perhaps future husband/father. Once written, ask yourself: "Would I even hire this man if he presented a resumé with the following qualifications? Would I even call a man with this skill set for an interview?": 

- Pot/alcohol problems
- Pathologically dishonest
- Little interest in sex with women
- Potentially gay-in-denial  

Some other straight spouses/partners have also asked themselves: "If my daughter were dating this same man, would I tell her to stay or go?" 

6. The man has lied to me on multiple occasions, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he lied about being molested, but that’s a pretty sick way to get around the discussion of being gay.

Sad, but true. Closeted men are very practiced at diverting attention away from their homosexuality. If he's like me, he started hiding his attraction to boys/men around age 5-6. Whether true or false, it's a myth that childhood sexual abuse makes men gay. We are simply born gay or straight children who are abused. If you take away his excuses, he sounds like a pot-head who isn't really into sex with women. Rather than having sex with you, he spends a lot of his free time messaging and trading naked pics with gay men. None of this makes him husband nor future father material in my humble opinion. My advice: run!  

7. He’s willing to entertain couples therapy...

Good God "entertain?" Were those really his words? This suggests you're pushing for it and he's resisting. He sounds a lot like a man drowning in the deep end who's now refusing to take swimming lessons. In my opinion, what you both need is individual therapy for at least the next 60-90 days. If you dive into couples counselling, then the healthy person (you) just starts drowning in his problems. I'd drop the idea of couples counselling, get yourself a therapist with experience in gay/straight relationships and work on yourself.    

8. Do you think there’s any use for that or would you say it’s probably too late?

Actions speak louder than words. If he were really committed to you, he would run to therapy to save the relationship...not just "entertain" the idea of counselling. But it sounds like he's running to the pot store, his secret email account, and the bottle. Where are you on his list of priorities? I don't want to come across as glib my friend and I'm not mocking your situation. I'm trying to jar you out of the denial/bargaining stage. Ask yourself: would you honestly let this man babysit your niece or nephew? Then perhaps it's time to stop letting him be the caretaker for something much more important: your heart.  

9.I love him....

Why? I'm having a hard time understanding who exactly you love and why.  I know from experience that partners in gay straight relationships are often in love with an imagined person or some fantasy future together. Ask yourself if you're truly in love with the man he is today. 

10. ...but I would never forgive myself if 10 or 20 years down the road he came out as gay.

Where there's pink smoke, there's fire my friend. You're currently in your 20s, you're not married, and I assume you two don't have any kids. These are supposed to be the most wonderful, romantic, and care-free days of your life. I honestly don't see how this relationship will improve over the coming years. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour, so imagine yourself coming back here 10 years later with two kids and a mortgage sharing: "I caught him sexting men and swapping d*ck pics...AGAIN!"  

11. I’m not sure with his family’s religious preferences and political preferences that he ever would, but I would hate to be in a marriage where neither of us were happy.

Excellent point. You have everything to lose by staying and everything to gain by walking away. There are plenty of straight, sober men who would love to have sex with you. Go find that guy and marry him. Dump this loser. 

Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (May 25, 2022 3:45 am)