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- beastie
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
FinallyFree2 wrote:
Beastie:
I’m also an exMormon with a gay in denial husband. We have been married over 25 years and our sex life has sucked for the entire marriage. Being Mormon, he was my first sexual partner. I had nothing to compare it to but I knew it lacked the passion I had with prior boyfriends. Thankfully he moved out in February of this year. He wants to be married “living apart together” so I can continue to be his beard. I was so sick of him making excuses for not wanting to have sex with me. I don’t know how many times he called me oversexed cause I wanted sex at least once a month. Our last time we had sex was over 8 years ago. Prior to that, he could rarely maintain an erection. I spent the last 25 years feeling like crap and unattractive. Being constantly turned down has played a major impact on my confidence and body image. Last year I lost over 50 lbs and been working with a personal trainer, three times a week, for the last 10 months. Thankfully I am feeling stronger and better about myself and feel much much better since he moved out. No daily reminders that he isn’t attracted to me.
I always thought he might be bisexual and or gay. After my father passed away in 2018, I went to therapy and that is when I asked him if he was gay. His reply, in front of the therapist, was he “didn’t like labels”. When I asked him again in December 2021, after he suggested he wanted to “live apart together, I asked him again and he did not answer the question. So yes, I think he is 100% gay even though he does not want to admit it.
I hate the Mormon church for pushing gay men and women to marry straight spouses. If the Mormon church was more accepting, maybe there would be less couples having to do thru this trauma. I’m so glad I left years ago!
I have been reading these boards for years and listening to the podcasts. It has made me feel that I’m not alone. Beastie, just know that you are not alone too.
Thank you so much FinallyFree! Sadly, I think there are too many of us to count. I think the Mormon church is one of the worst offenders today in terms of their treatment of gay people. I cannot even imagine what it must have been like for our ex-husbands to grow up in that environment.
Just for example - I went to BYU and graduated in 1978. During the time I was there, I never heard of a single gay student. Maybe that is because they were being sent for electroshock and vomit therapy conducted by BYU. There was a spy system encouraged by BYU leaders to "turn in" any suspected homosexuals. Although I did not know him at that time, my ex-husband went to BYU for one year during this time period. He never fully explained what happened, but he had to drop out after a year because he just stopped attending classes. Now, my ex has numerous mental health issues including untreated bipolar, so perhaps that explains it. But I have often wondered if there was more to the story. One thing that made me suspicious is that when I became pregnant the first time, he wanted to pick the name if the baby was a boy. That was very odd, because he was angry and depressed when I became pregnant and had no interest in the arriving baby in general. But he wanted to name the baby after a friend of his on the baseball team. He claimed he just liked his name. After having experienced his relationships with his "friends" in marriage, I suspected that this was more than a friend. I wonder if they were caught, and that ended his time at BYU.
I know something terrible happened to him in his youth. He acted like he had PTSD. He would have these horrible nightmares and wake up terrified. When he told me that his father used to beat him with a belt until his legs bled, I attributed it to that. But Sean's made me realize that I shouldn't simply trust his stories of past abuse. He was a pathological liar, so that is a good point. But you can't fake those nightmares he had. I really wonder if something happened at BYU.
I would not be surprised if Mormons are over-represented on this site. As time goes on and gay rights are recognized and normalized, the Mormons are one of the last hold-outs. And because their theology is tied up in eternal procreation, it may be impossible for them to ever embrace their gay members and let them live with respect and dignity.
The hard truth is that I would never have divorced my ex if I had not first left the church. I don't want to alienate possible members here who are still believing LDS, but I have to be truthful. The church built a prison for me, and my ex knew it. That prison was the sanctity of temple marriage and how divorce was almost never justified. I took a class on "Achieving a Celestial Marriage", and still have the manual. It has a long list of marital problems that can be overcome with repentance, NOT divorce, and abuse is right on that list! I felt that divorcing my then husband would be a slap in the face to God, who sealed us together. I could never leave him as long as I still believed.
And he knew that.
I used to wonder why my ex didn't go through the "honeymoon" phase that most abusers do. He only started doing that AFTER I left the church (at which time he said he never really believed in the church in the first place, despite putting on a big act of righteousness when we started dating, because he knew that was what I wanted). He did not have the "honeymoon" me because he knew I would never leave. Abusers "honeymoon" their prey to confuse them enough not to leave. He didn't have that problem. I was in a prison that the Mormon church constructed.
My loss of faith in the Mormon church had nothing to do with my marriage, ironically. But as soon as I left, my ex suddenly said "I'll be the next to go". I was surprised because I had not even considered divorce. But he was right. He knew my leaving the church meant eventually I would get the strength to leave him, because, deep down, he knew he deserved to be left.
I do think the chastity culture of Mormonism really sets us up for these confusing mixed marriages. We just do not have the prior sexual experience to recognize how wrong our sexual relationships with our husbands were. And the Mormon church has a history of inserting itself into marital sex as well. You're probably too young to remember, but when I got married in 1982, the church was still trying to figure out married oral sex. They had recently sent out a letter to its leadership saying oral sex was impure and unholy, and even married people who engaged in it were not worthy of temple recommends. This meant that bishops and stake presidents started asking married couples about oral sex during their temple recommend interviews, which caused an uproar and they had to backpedal and clarify that this should NOT be asked. I got married right after the backpedal letter was sent out, so young couples that had been married longer than me had been asked the question.
So the culture and sometimes outright teachings of the Mormon church encouraged just plain missionary sex (pun intended) and frowned upon oral sex even for married couples. So no wonder we were all just confused about sex. No wonder so many sexually inexperienced Mormon couples end up in mixed marriages and have no idea what's going on. We had no idea what sex really was to begin with.
So yeah, I'm right there with you being angry at the Mormon church, and yet we both know they will never apologize or try to fix their errors. That's why there will continue to be a higher percentage of mixed marriages in the Mormon church, and that's why the suffering will continue.
Like Sean and others have said, sometimes I want to scream "Where's MY parade?" So many of us bore the toxic burden of our gay spouse's secret because our spouses went out of their way to make sure we always, ALWAYS, blamed ourselves for the sexual problems of our marriage. We were fat, we were ugly, we were boring. And no matter how much weight you lost, how you changed your hair, how you used make-up, the goalposts always shifted. We could not be good enough, because we had vaginas.
I am so glad you have moved on and are healing! Like I said, I don't want to pick on the Mormon church for fear of offending believers that may be here looking for help, but we must be honest. The Mormon church is part of the problem here.
- beastie
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
Thank you everyone for posting. In reply:
Tragic. Question: what is their relationship with dad now? While closeted, I believe I had a form of gay-in-denial (or GID) narcissism and I do believe that closeted/questioning spouses display a lot of narcissistic traits. Conversely, I also believe that many straight spouses are co-dependents.
Their dad is 100% a malignant narcissist and they all accept that. He is a textbook case. I have read and heard you talk about your own narcissism, and I view it as "secondary" narcissism, caused by gay-in-denial. You, and other GID spouses, engaged in classic narcissistic behavior, but the cause wasn't primary narcissism, the actual personality disorder. It was a disorder caused by twisted attempts at survival, in my (nonmedical) opinion. But my exhusband obviously has the actual personality disorder itself.
I have struggled with co-dependency throughout my life. I suffered emotional neglect as a child. I went to counseling a couple of years ago to help me set clearer boundaries with my adult children due to my co-dependent issues. It did help. Fortunately, I was lucky enough (and it was plain luck because I had not worked on my own issues enough to choose wisely) to fall in love with the kindest and most clear-headed man I have ever known, and he just wouldn't take advantage of me and set clear boundaries himself. So while I know I still have these issues, I think I have made progress.
My children are all now in their thirties. They are wonderful, caring people who have had a LOT of struggles in life. My ex-husband took me to court to get joint custody of the children despite his minimal, and usually negative, involvement in their care. It was the scariest time of my life. I'm just lucky he was not from a wealthy family, otherwise he may have been able to succeed. So I was awarded full custody, but they had to visit him every other weekend. That was enough for him to continue to damage them.
My middle son became very ill with bipolar when he was 14. This was not a surprise due to my ex's bipolar, but my ex refused to accept the diagnosis for years, until it was to his advantage to accept him (and try to convince me that I shouldn't believe the stories my son was telling me about what his dad was saying and doing to him - including offering to get him a gun when he expressed suicidal feelings). My ex and his sugar mommy were equally abusive to him because he was making their lives uncomfortable with his illness. So my son refused to see him at all for a while, and now only sees him once or twice a year, mainly because he has a daughter and my extended Mormon family made him feel guilty for not allowing his dad to have a "relationship" with his granddaughter. My son's bipolar is controlled with medication, which he's always taken religiously partly due to seeing the destruction his dad's untreated bipolar caused. He is in therapy really working on his issues, but does have a good marriage. He and his wife (second wife) live in my basement apartment so I can help take care of my autistic granddaughter.
My youngest daughter sees him a bit more, but still very limited. She was the "golden child" growing up but got addicted to opioids and later cocaine (not surprising for golden children). She got in trouble with the law and was in rehab twice. She has turned her life around and is doing very well, but is in therapy to deal with her trust issues. I think she will never be able to have a long-term relationship with a man due to those issues, but as long as she's happy and healthy single, I'm fine with that. On one level she knows associating with her dad tends to be bad for her, but because of his sugar mommy he has more spare money than I do to help her out when she needs it, and to be frank, that's part of the reason she keeps contact with him.
Both these children are very clear-headed about who their dad is and the negative impact he tends to have. They see him mainly on Christmas, and maybe one other time during the year. They talk on the phone occasionally.
My oldest MTF transgender daughter is the one who sees him the most. She still presents as male (because she's afraid of losing her good job), so that's kind of confusing, but my ex was actually accepting of her when she came out as transgender. Maybe that is because this is the child who has been the most forgiving of him and the most willing to try to have a "real" relationship with him, with limited success. She sees him probably six times a year but talks to him on the phone every week.
When I first talked to my kids about him being gay, they flat out said "no way". It was only when I shared more details over the years that they gradually changed to "maybe, but I don't want to think about it", to "probably, but I don't want to think about it." I can't blame them.
I've interviewed Josh Weed, the former poster boy for gay/straight Mormon mixed-orientation marriages (or MOMs) Josh and Lolly Weed’s account of why their “mixed orientation” marriage failed is remarkable. (slate.com). I am very strongly against MOMs between gay men and straight women.
I will definitely check that out. I was thrilled when they finally told the truth - ie, that mixed marriages don't work, and that gay people deserve to have intimacy like anyone else in this world. I was proud of them for being brave.
While I'm no scholar, this isn't the only time the Mormon church found itself scrambling to adapt to public opinion. The church was forced to denounce polygamy and also had to reverse a prior ban on blacks becoming Mormons.
Exactly. And their OPEN policy is to never apologize. If they apologize for their past actions, it's the equivalent of admitting past leaders were WRONG and LED THE CHURCH ASTRAY, which their theology will not allow them to do. (minor correction: black people were allowed to become Mormons, they just were not allowed to hold the priesthood or go to the temple, the most sacred covenants of Mormonism, so they were second-class Mormons)
It will be very difficult for them to backpedal entirely on homosexuality. Mormon theology is based on the idea that "celestial marriage" is necessary to get into the highest degree of heaven, and that procreation will continue in heaven through eternity (the real teaching is that this allows faithful believers to become "exalted" and eventually become gods of their own planets, but the church has downplayed and even partly denied that teaching lately in order to appear more mainstream). In the early days of the church, celestial marriage meant plural marriage, but once that changed, it came to be understood as marriage between one man and one woman (although men continue to be able to be eternally married to more than one woman). So the entire foundation of Mormon theology is based on eternal marriage and eternal procreation. While obviously gay people can procreate, it's outside the bounds of their primary relationships (either through medical intervention or past mixed relationships), so it's not nwithin the God-approved bounds. So how can they fit in Mormon theology?
It may happen eventually. The Mormon church wants to survive, and young people are leaving in droves. Young people tend to automatically accept gay people, so as time goes on, this will be a bigger problem for the church. It's possible they could alter their theology to include eternal gay couples. I mean, we're talking about something not even serious believers understand ("exalted" Mormons have resurrected bodies, have sex, make babies, but those babies are born of spirit, not flesh), so I can see them just saying that it will all work out somehow (through spiritual artificial insemination), but it would take a long time and lots of loss of tithe payers for that to happen. I don't expect it in my lifetime.
Which means that the Mormon church will continue to produce a high number of miserable mixed marriages and unhappy divorces.
Note: I do want to be careful in my criticism of the Mormon church, because I suspect that there are believing Mormons who are members of this group looking for support. I don't want to alienate them but have to be honest about the destructive role Mormonism played in my mixed marriage.
Well this is his version of events. I reckon straight wives can be skeptical when their closeted/questioning husbands paint themselves as victims. If he's been a liar and a cheat your entire relationship, he's likely lying about his past.
You are so right. I should have been skeptical of his story about childhood abuse. I know their dad used to "whip" them with the belt, because his brother also talked about that, but the bleeding legs does sound suspicious, in retrospect. He grew up in the same home as his grandmother as well as his mother, and I can't imagine either would have tolerated that level of abuse. And I especially should have been skeptical because he was a pathological liar AND he didn't tell me about this level of abuse until he knew our marriage was over and he was saying/doing anything he could to stop me.
Correction: former boyfriends/lovers.
Yes! It's time I stop being so careful about that, leaving room for doubt. After listening to the Brokeback Mountain part of your broadcast, it's clear they were boyfriends. They weren't Mormons, because that would be too risky. Faithful Mormons believe in confessing their sins to their church leader, and he would never have trusted another Mormon enough to NOT break down and do that one day, and then he'd be in trouble.
I wouldn't compromise your safety and the last thing you want to do is be on this toxic man's radar.
Yes. That's part of the reason your affirmation meant a lot to me - there is only a very small group of people I have talked to about this. I haven't reached out to people who might know more (like his first wife's family who grew up with him) out of fear of it getting back to him.
Sometimes closeted men act like the biggest bigots/homophobes as cover.
I had heard that, but the topic never came up between us, so I never saw it. But over the years my kids have. That's part of the reason I was so surprised my ex was accepting of my transgender daughter. Whatever the reason, I'm glad he's been good about that one thing at least.
Glad to have helped in some way but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health expert.
You have helped a lot. You're not a mental health expert, but, in my opinion, you're an expert on GID husbands, and that's the expertise I needed. I have been to therapy several times since leaving him and feel pretty emotionally healthy, with awareness of my boundary issues with co-dependency.
Our Path's Kristin Kalbli and I discussed these "Brokeback Mountain" relationships here S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath.
I loved the podcasts! They were very helpful. I do now accept that these were boyfriends/lovers. They really were like his husbands.
Likely because some of them still believe being gay is somehow evil or perhaps a form of mental disorder...as many churches still teach. When straight spouses find proof their husbands are engaging sexually with other men, I encourage them to ask their husbands, "What does gay mean to you?" and/or "Can two men actually love each other?" rather than jumping to the "Are you GAY!!??" interrogation. If a closeted/questioning husband thinks of "gay" as being exclusively drag queens, back-alley sexual deviants, or angel-winged pride float glitter boys, he isn't likely going to see himself as being any of these because he has such a negative view of homosexuality.
That's a good point. While many of my family are still believing Mormons, they are much more accepting of homosexuality than many Mormons are, especially the younger generation. My grandniece came out as gay in high school, and her active Mormon parents accept her. Fortunately for her, she's not active in church so isn't dealing with that toxicity, but I applaud her believing parents for loving their child more than some bigoted religious belief.
I reckon it's time to stop yelling at the deaf my friend. The only people who might consider your ex-husband is/was gay are those who first accept that gay people truly exist. So I'd stop debating this with people who can't even acknowledge that people are born gay or, worse, that being gay is some form of "choice." I've long stopped engaging with people who can't accept me nor my relationship with another man. Move on.
This makes sense. Even though my Mormon family is more tolerant and liberal than many Mormons, heterosexuality is still a core basic tenet of Mormon theology. Accepting that some people are homosexual and not bisexual means accepting that God created people completely at odds with their basic theology. I never thought of it in those terms before, but I bet you're right. I bet it is their religious beliefs that, in the end, prevent them from accepting that is he homosexual, and not (maybe) bisexual). In an odd way, that does make it hurt less.
Last edited by beastie (April 16, 2022 9:50 am)
- beastie
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
I just listened to the two podcasts devoted to Mormonism and this issue, including the interview of Josh and Lolly. I highly recommend listening to these, especially if you have a Mormon connection.
One of the best parts was at the end of Josh and Lolly's interview where they talked about their divorce, and how they realized it isn't just the sexual connection, but it's the romantic connection that is lost in a mixed marriage and the impact that has. Josh was able to understand and recognize that loss after he got involved with his boyfriend, and then fully realized what Lolly had sacrificed to be with her, and wrote her a long letter apologizing. The interviewer was so touched by that because she had never gotten that from her ex-husband and never would. For so many GID exhusbands, they can't ever bring themselves to admit or recognize the damage the marriage did to their wives, much less apologize for it in any meaningful way. And we could really use that on our healing journey, because it finally recognizes our humanity and the right to our own lives, which GIDspouses often ignore in their secondary narcissism.
I realized that's why, after 25 years, it still felt like I needed closure, and why I posted here. I needed what I could never get from my ex-husband, a genuine recognition of what he did to me and the cost it had on my life. I think that's why I've been so touched by Sean here, because, in a way, Sean's recognition and sorrow over the pain his own denial and associated narcissism caused is the closest I'll ever get to an apology from my ex-husband. It means a lot to me. Thank you, Sean (and Josh and Lolly)!
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- beastie
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
Another thing this has cleared up for me - early in our marriage, during one of his rants, my ex accused me of "tricking" him into marrying me. I was just so confused. I had no idea what he could possibly mean. Now I realize that it was projection. He had tricked me into marrying him, and he knew it.
- Sean
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
Thank you for sharing all of this beastie. I'd encourage you to start your own thread to continue sharing your story and observations. I reckon other Mormons and ex-Mormons who find themselves here would get a lot out of it. Food for thought!
- RoseColoredGlasses
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
I’ve never been this confused and sad I think my son may have either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. He is enrolled in the right program, and we are just beginning to learn more. The idea that serious mental illness could be caused by my husband’s orientation issues seems like a stretch in some ways, but undoubtedly they added stress, which is a contributing factor. Here’s the crazy thing: they kind of look alike. Delusions. Denial. If it’s that. My husband is very seriously saying I am all he wants, and can we really “call it” for someone else? At what point is that abusive? Ugh. I am now losing my mind too. I am going to trust the professionals here for a while now I guess, and just take it all day by day.
Last edited by RoseColoredGlasses (April 17, 2022 5:46 am)
- beastie
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
I’ve never been this confused and sad I think my son may have either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. He is enrolled in the right program, and we are just beginning to learn more. The idea that serious mental illness could be caused by my husband’s orientation issues seems like a stretch in some ways, but undoubtedly they added stress, which is a contributing factor. Here’s the crazy thing: they kind of look alike. Delusions. Denial. If it’s that. My husband is very seriously saying I am all he wants, and can we really “call it” for someone else? At what point is that abusive? Ugh. I am now losing my mind too. I am going to trust the professionals here for a while now I guess, and just take it all day by day.
Rose, I don't know much about schizophrenia, but I do know a lot about bipolar. My GID ex has it and refuses to treat it, and my 34 year old son has it, and takes his meds and therapy seriously.
Bipolar is a biological disease with a strong genetic component. If a person has a predisposition towards bipolar, that does not necessarily mean they'll get it, just like someone with a predisposition towards diabetes may not get it. Environmental triggers to play a part. If someone with a genetic predisposition towards diabetes (like myself, I have family history of diabetes and had gestational diabetes) eats a lot of carbs and gains weight over the years, they will almost certainly develop diabetes. But if this same person takes care to limit carbs and weight gain, they may never develop diabetes. (This is what I aim for after being diagnosed with prediabetes and so far it's worked).
There are environmental triggers that make it more likely that a person with a genetic disposition towards bipolar will develop it. Those triggers are childhood trauma and abuse. They've done research with groups with limited genetic lines, like the Amish, to determine this. And what's unfortunate is if an individual is born with a genetic predisposition towards bipolar, chances are high that one parent also has it. Parents with bipolar have to be very careful and diligent with their own mental health to avoid situations that may traumatize their child. Sadly, treatment resistance is very common with bipolar, so that often there has been chaos and emotional trauma in homes with a parent with bipolar. That is what my son suffered, and why it was almost inevitable he developed it himself. My other two children do not have it, so they likely did not inherit the genetic tendency that my son did.
And, of course, a GID narcissistic spouse can cause a tremendous amount of emotional trauma for a child.
This is all very distressing, and can lead to self-blame on the part of parents. I think we all go through this period of mourning and self-blame, but the important thing for your child is to educate yourself so you can be a team with his or her medical professionals. Bipolar IS a treatable illness, people with bipolar CAN and DO have productive and happy lives. My son, although he has struggled with finding a career with low stress (important for the management of bipolar), has one of the best marriages I've ever seen AND is a wonderful, loving father to his daughter (who is autistic with her own challenges). So don't despair.
I'm not familiar with the treatment of schizophrenia, but I understand it's come a long way and there are successful options there, as well.
I wish you luck. It is a hard journey for sure. It is so hard for a parent as well. We want to protect our children from all harm and often blame ourselves for the trauma of their childhoods. But there can be success and a happy life!
Last edited by beastie (April 17, 2022 10:03 am)
- RoseColoredGlasses
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
Beastie:
Thank you so much for this thoughtful, positive reply. I am optimistic we can help my son get on top of this, but it is rocky right now. You are right - he was adopted and birth mom had bipolar. In terms of your story with your ex husband, my turmoil with mine - I think one common denominator is the trouble that bias causes. It clouds and it warps. Hopefully we are headed for a better, more accepting world for this next generation - looks like your kids are leading the way. ❤️
- Sean
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
Thank you for posting Rose. I apologize for acting like a "know-it-all" armchair counsellor of sorts. I'm slowly starting to understand the pain, agony, and paralysing indecision suffered by straight wives and mothers still living with closeted husbands. So take all the time you need my friend. I'd also urge you to focus on your own mental health and well being. Thinking of you. If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, feel free to post them here.
- RoseColoredGlasses
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Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions
I don’t think “know it all” at all. I do think you fought through the b.s. societal bias and shame for the sake of your family, bringing everyone to a better place. Wish my guy, who isn’t evil, just super stuck, could do the same. Thanks again. Rose