Thank you for replying TTSP and again my apologies for jumping to conclusions. I thought your husband's therapist was gay because of this sentence you wrote: 

I'm talking about...the therapist.  Another gay man. 

In response to your last post: 

1. Hi Sean, My feelings weren't hurt, but I will admit to being irritated at the tone of your first post.  Thanks for the apologies, but certainly no need to take the post down. We're all adults here. 

I appreciate that. This is the second time I've been called out for jumping to conclusions so I'll try to be more mindful in future posts. The last thing I want to do is add to a straight spouse's pain. 

2. Thank you for answering the original question.  It's always interesting to get different perspectives.  

My pleasure. 

3. For clarification, my husband's therapist is straight.  If I gave the impression otherwise, it was not intentional.  

No worries. 

4. I have actually heard some of these comments "from the source" as I went to a few sessions with his therapist, and I've seen his personal notes and original treatment plan.  I am an observer, so I can usually read a room very well, and my husband has no poker face . . . I didn't get the vibe that my husband was cherry-picking or hyper-focusing on specific comments to twist to his plea for an open marriage.  I really think the therapist told him those things, and I know I heard some of those things myself. So no, it's not all "unverified" sources.  

Understood. I have a question: how has your husband been expressing his attraction to men? You mentioned that he hasn't cheated, so have you caught him using gay porn or perhaps contacting other men online? 

5. Like you, I felt at the time that the therapist was just trying to challenge him.  I didn't think too much of it.  Now that I think about it though, my therapist also asked me how my husband "came to the conclusion" that he was gay in our first session. So maybe it's a common question for therapists to pose?  I don't know, and it doesn't really matter.  He's clearly not straight, and that is all that matters. 

I have two follow up questions: 

- Are these faith-based therapists? 
- How do you know your husband is "not straight"? 

6. You imply that my husband is using these comments to play some "these gay men don't believe I'm gay and I need to prove it by sleeping with men first..." mind game with me, and that's not what happened.  I was actually the one who first brought up that the gay guy asked him similar questions as the therapist.  Did he have a moment of saying  "That's why I'm confused..." in a future conversation with me?  Yes, but he didn't fixate on it or continue to come back to it.  He did try to make a joke about a free-pass, and I told him I'd put a coupon in that cute little couples sex book he gave me for Christmas three months before he dropped his bomb in our marriage bed.  He shut up.  

Damn. Well played. 

7. But on the flip side, he told me so many other things these gay men told him -- like do not date right away.  Get through the divorce, and then start your new life. Like you said, he's not a bad guy per se.  I don't think he's consciously trying to set me up and force me into an open marriage.  I know he's struggling, but I think he is finally recognizing my struggle in this too.   I honestly think, considering the horror stories I've read on this forum, he's handled this situation far better than many of the gay/lesbian spouses. 

Based on my time here, most straight wives still feel the need to defend their closeted husbands...even when their husbands have lied and cheated. So I apologize for lumping you in with the "Stockholm Syndrome Straights" so to speak. My question is: what exactly does your husband want now: divorce or an open marriage?  

8. I think you've painted a pretty dark picture of him based on your own personal experiences, and I say that as someone who doesn't even like him most days right now.  Yes, he has made a lot of mistakes, and yes, I've caught him in lies, but I think your narrative of this particular situation is wrong.  

100% agree! 

9. Anyway, I wasn't asking because it's been an issue in our house or some ongoing discussion.  I just happened to see something else on the forum that reminded me of those conversations, and I thought I'd ask.  It was curiosity, more than something I'm struggling with.  Thanks for your time. 

Thank YOU for so calmly and graciously responding. Be well! 

Hi Sean. I’m currently in a 19 year marriage with my high school best friend, turned boyfriend and now husband. I’m looking for your opinion on what he’s going through. I knew he was bisexual in highschool. We were in Show Choir together and he had about a 6 month relationship (secret to everyone else) with another male friend of ours. He also dated a plethora of girls and was sexual with both genders. Our relationship has been very passionate at times, then dry others. Long story short, I think what I’m discovering is that his desires have changed back and forth between genders over the years. The times he’s desired men, he’s looked outside the marriage though and that’s where our issues lie. He is hurting that he’s hurt me and we’ve made it clear that we love eachother. The past few years, we’ve had no sex. I recently discovered that he’s been messaging other men via Facebook messenger and sharing sexual pictures. I asked him if his desires have changed over the years and if he desires men more right now. He said yes. I asked if he is still attracted to women and he said yes. So I know he’s confused, doesn’t want to hurt me and that we both need counseling but I figured why not seek your opinion being someone that’s been in his similar shoes before. Questions I have...

1.) I know you are gay rather than bisexual, but do you know or have you heard, of any other men who have slowly leaned more towards identifying as gay rather than bisexual as they age? I’m wondering if it has anything to do with a decrease in testosterone levels. I only mention that because my husband has mentioned concerns over it.
2.) what communication strategies are best to get him to open up? Counseling? Are there specific questions I could ask and a way to present them that might help him discover his truth and share it honestly with me?
3.) in your experience, how did you move forward successfully in your divorce. How did you deal with the challenge of telling friends, family and kids? What are your tips to me if I need to handle divorce so that we can get through this in an amicable and loving manner. (We aren’t there yet, and may make this work still, I just need to prepare)

Thank you for your insight!!

Epiphany

Hi Sean. Not gonna lie, your post did put me into a slight panic. I can feel the adrenaline and emotions bubbling up and could now use a drink. I do appreciate bluntness though. I guess the only thing I’d clear up is that I’m not asking him to stay if he knows he’s gay. I already suspect more has happened than I’m aware of. He’s the one not being forthcoming and trying to keep me believing this will work. I don’t think he’s prepared to accept his truth. I think I’ve been accepting it longer than he has. Your advice of 6 months is good. I will take the time to go to counseling with and without him, have him go alone and will also start preparing for possible separation/divorce. I do believe people can be bisexual though and I can guarantee he’s been very attracted to women...me and others. While everything you’ve said could be point on, I do have to remind myself that everyone and every relationship is different. Right now I can’t see getting back to intimacy with him. That’s a huge issue for me. I am young. I do need intimacy and while I’ve been monogamous because of my annoyingly huge moral compass...I do have attractions to other men. Our love and family might need a little longer than 6 months...maybe it won’t. Either way, I really do appreciate your insight!

Thank you,
Epiphany

Hi Sean, my responses to your statements/questions in blue.    

Thank you for replying TTSP and again my apologies for jumping to conclusions. I thought your husband's therapist was gay because of this sentence you wrote:  I'm talking about...the therapist.  Another gay man.  
I figured after re-reading that might have been the source of the misunderstanding.  I should have worded it differently.  

I have a question: how has your husband been expressing his attraction to men? You mentioned that he hasn't cheated, so have you caught him using gay porn or perhaps contacting other men online?

Yes and no.  I didn't "catch" him, because I wasn't initially looking, I didn't have a reason.  It started with the "voluntary" disclosure, and he told me a lot of things up front, or reluctantly answered my questions when he asked. He admitted to porn when I asked.  I don't think I was surprised at that point, because I know a lot of men unfortunately struggle with it in general, and you know, by then I was already reeling from the whole "my entire adult life has been a lie" news. He admitted that it started with straight, and then mostly bi and gay porn, and didn't make excuses.  He did tell me later that after our conversation he stopped watching it, and the more time that went by, the better he felt--some weird conversation about how that "burning desire" to sleep with a man had significantly lessened as time went on.  I don't know.  His therapist compared it to how teens love to masturbate, but as they get older they realize they're still alone when all is said and done, or something along those lines.  

Of course, after his disclosure I was periodically obsessed with digging and snooping. He's never been good at hiding paper trails in general, he uses the same email address and password variation for everything...it's not been hard to find things related to this whole nightmare.  I've seen emails, texts/messages with friends, browsing history, what apps are on his phone.  So while I've seen things that pertain to all of this, I haven't found anything...overtly salacious.  No pictures, nothing to indicate he's setting up hookups, no searches for gay bars/clubs/bathhouses. If he's doing it, he's gotten better at hiding things, and I can't imagine when he'd have the time to do it.  But really, I rarely look anymore, because I don't need to find anything else.  I know enough, and I know how I feel about it.  

 I have two follow up questions:
- Are these faith-based therapists?
- How do you know your husband is "not straight"?  
No, neither are faith-based therapists.  

I know he's "not straight" because he's admitted as much.  He's gone back and forth implying he's bi or gay, and whether that is a legitimate identity issue or a struggle to accept and face his reality, I don't know, and I am past the point where it matters to me. I know the damage this situation has done to our marriage and to me, and I know what I want for myself.    

Based on my time here, most straight wives still feel the need to defend their closeted husbands...even when their husbands have lied and cheated. So I apologize for lumping you in with the "Stockholm Syndrome Straights" so to speak. My question is: what exactly does your husband want now: divorce or an open marriage?  
That's partially why I deleted my first really long response.  It sounded like I was defending him, and that is not my intent.  I am past the shock and denial.   

But as to your question, he does not outwardly express a desire for either.  He knows an open marriage is not on the table, and never will be.  He knows divorce is the only viable option to "explore" without actually having an affair.  I do think at one point, he even tried to use divorce as an ultimatum almost...if I couldn't give him the open marriage, he didn't see any other options was the underlying message.  But when it came down to it, he was too scared to pull the trigger.  

I guess his last declared position was that he wanted to "work on us" but I am too tired to care anymore. It's not like the love-bombing or honeymoon type thing we went through in the beginning.  It's more like...we both know there's an elephant in the room, but we actually still get along really well right now, so we just go through the motions. I guess I've taken the position that he's pretending he's trying to make this work (to himself...to me...it doesn't matter) and I'm pretending I believe him, to keep the tension down while I get my ducks in a row.  

*****  
Virion, I'm so sorry about what you're going through.  I agree that this is a complete nightmare, it's utterly soul-crushing.  I'm almost 10 month from my discovery, so I've gone through the trauma-bonding and honeymoon cycle here too, but I've not experienced a lot of the other fallout as others have discussed here.  I'm not in denial though.  I know there could be things I don't know about, and I know it could get worse.  So I cautiously remain, for various personal reasons, but I am watching our for signs of narcissist rage or anything that would prompt me to immediately remove my children from a toxic environment.  I care about myself, but they are my number one priority right now.   

Thank you for writing Stronger although I'm very sorry that you've found yourself here. In response to your question: 

1. Sean, for gay men with a large “toy” collection... are they playing with these toys with other gay men?​

Can you provide additional details please? 

2. I've taken the liberty of reviewing your first post here for more information: Hi. I am new to this world, having discovered a bag full of dildos, scanty underwear and other things hiding in the back of my husband’s car.

If the dildos and underwear were in his car, the evidence suggests he's taking these items somewhere to use with someone else. When reviewing what a closeted husband says, I adopt a Judge Judy approach to what he's saying, meaning that "If his mouth is moving, he's lying." 

3. Originally, having this conversation with him was such a relief but now I find that I am having a hard time every day. We have been together for 25 years and I just didn’t see this coming. I want to make it work but I am struggling.

Again I'm sorry you're suffering my friend. I'd urge to you to read the SSN First Aid kid, get yourself a good therapist, continue posting here, and share all of this with a close friend or family member.   

4. He has seen a therapist and worked through his own feelings with his sexuality. I found everything out just a few days before covid locked the world down. Oddly enough, the relief made me feel like we can do this.

Understood. 

5. We had not been sexually active for years, something I thought was on me because I was scared after childbirth.

This is a common red flag and a lack of sex/intimacy often forces the straight wife to start investigating. 

6. Now I find that I want to have sex with him and please him and he says he wants that too but he gets quiet and seems to push back from me. He has only told a few people that he thinks he is bi (I think he is actually gay).

Well gay men aren't interested in women nor women's bodies so if he's having sex with himself or other men, this would suggest that he's gay. 

7. He likes to “entertain himself” using dildos, poppers, etc. I find that I am super resentful of this. He also likes to text with a friend of his and “live out his fantasies.”

Poppers are a huge red flag and suggest that he's a gay bottom, or the person who is penetrated during gay sex. I assume his sex "friend" is also a man, but please confirm. 

8. So far, he has not actually been with another man.

Bullsh*t. Online sex with another man is also cheating so I'd urge you to focus on facts rather than spin. And why? The gay-in-denial husband is simply incapable of being honest about his sexuality and sexual history. 

If your husband's experience mirrors my own, he likely started having sex with men when he stopped having sex with you. The dates likely coincide. Once I'd had real-world sex with another man, I simply couldn't have pretend sex with my (then) wife. When a closeted husband is confronted, he will often attempt to have sex with his wife again to "prove" that he still loves her. Please have him get tested for STIs before you resume sex and, once you've received a negative STI result, practice only safe sex by using condoms. While his interest in straight sex may only last for a few weeks, the last thing you want to do is catch a dangerous venereal disease during any "honeymoon" phase. Be careful!   

Thank you for sharing my friend. If I haven't answered your questions, please feel free to post again. Be well!

Last edited by Séan (January 15, 2021 5:08 am)