OurPath Open Forum

This Open Forum is funded and administered by OurPath, Inc., (formerly the Straight Spouse Network). OurPath is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit that provides support to Straight Partners and Partners of Trans People who have discovered that their partner is LGBT+. Your contribution, no matter how small, helps us provide our community with this space for discussion and connection.


BE A DONOR >>>


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



January 6, 2021 2:05 pm  #1


Recognition theory

My husband and I are about 1.5 months out from him uncovering repressed feelings (thanks, Catholicism). We've been together 13 years. He's gay. Bi would've given me hope. I think I have bi tendencies. But gay is a hard starting point in a hetero marriage.

Our two young kids are beautiful and we both adore them completely. We're best friends. We complete each other's thoughts and have the same values. I thought I was unique in a sense when I first came to these board a few hours after trying to process the news, but rereading these forums I'm almost lost in the familiarity.

We had a fun romp in the first month. Both allowing desire to awaken. Seeking each other's closeness. Until I said offhand something about being in love, and he matter of factly said he wasn't in love with me any more. Which makes me wonder what it means to be "in love." He's hard pressed to define it because he's got so many unknown and novel sensations. He's a child again, in a lot of ways. But does in love mean the focus of desire?

So, we're not giving up. Even if we're in the group that has about 2-3 years before splitting, those 2 years will allow us to grow. Yes, and hurt. But also learn new ways to love.

The problem is figuring out how to not give up. 

This weekend we were solemnly listing to the radio in the car and they were talking about Dolly Parton. Of course Dolly fixes everything. The host was discussing a book to describe the Dolly phenomenon - Beyond Doer and Done To.  It's a bit too heavy at the moment for my fried brain, but was wondering if anyone has any experience of how to move on with something like this approach. 

The blurb: Jessica Benjamin expands her theory of mutual recognition and its breakdown into the complementarity of "doer and done to." Her innovative theory charts the growth of the Third in early development through the movement between recognition and breakdown, and shows how it parallels the enactments in the psychoanalytic relationship. Benjamin's recognition theory illuminates the radical potential of acknowledgment in healing both individual and social trauma, in creating relational repair in the transformational space of thirdness. Benjamin's unique formulations of intersubjectivity make essential reading for both psychoanalytic therapists and theorists in the humanities and social sciences. reference: psycnet.apa.org/record/2017-44587-000

Have also looked at the idea of being wild (ex. Jack Halberstam). Of not boxing into any paradigms. But still looking for ways of putting some of this into practice and appreciate any productive models. Appreciate the Dutchman/Samantha posts in some of this! I think it helps him, because he's so lost, too.

I apologize for repetition as I keep trying to figure things out and keep coming across things that have been answered before. It's reassuring but I appreciate the chance to filter this through my story telling. I agree with so many others that it's hard not to be wrapped up in the coming out narrative. I keep asserting my narrative.

 

January 7, 2021 1:05 pm  #2


Re: Recognition theory

LoneWolf wrote:

Bi would've given me hope. I think I have bi tendencies. But gay is a hard starting point in a hetero marriage.

Gay/lesbian in a MOM is probably more complicated than bi. It's an extra challenge to both.
Either way, the character of the persons involved and the life choices they make is by far the most important factor. That's also what I read in the sories of the bi-straight MOMs.
But this goes even in straight marriages as well. My (lesbian) wife has four straight siblings, all four of them divorced, some are in their third marriage.
Our MOM is the only marriage among them that succeeded...

You'll undoubtately understand it's not a ride down hill. Both have to consider well how to do it, going about it using all their emotional intelligence and rational capacity. Getting help from the outside is a good idea because it's likely you'll experience some lack in these 'talents' (individualy or as a couple). This also needs time. Getting help to develop is a sensible thing to do (seek out a good therapist that aligns with your goals and knows what he/she is doing).
Even when you don't succeed, it's worthwhile as personal growth. But I realy think if both go on this path, being honest, open and determined to achieve your goal, there's a good chance.
But making mistakes, going through troubles, experience emotional ups and downs, that I can certainly guarantee. That's in front of you and it'll take time and determination. 
For us it was one year through 'the valley of death', and one year climbing out. After that years of gradual rise with episodes of stallment before the final turn in the road, and we reached the the promised land. Now we're sitting on the beach sipping tequila (well, not all the time...). But it's as good and strong love relation like people can have. For us it brings everything we wanted, but with an exceptional solid foundation beneath it. Maybe I could compare it with a filter: the negative struggles and problems diminished, while we kept on to the positive we learned along the way.
This didn't stop even until the present. When an ugly stone happen to show up in the sieve, we remove it and the next batch will be the more clearer. 

Until I said offhand something about being in love, and he matter of factly said he wasn't in love with me any more. Which makes me wonder what it means to be "in love." He's hard pressed to define it because he's got so many unknown and novel sensations. He's a child again, in a lot of ways. But does in love mean the focus of desire?

I recognize this sort of "event" shortly after my wife came-out, and it felt terrible to me. For my wife it was she'd realized she didn't fall in love with me realy, ie. not to be compared to the emotions she felt for the woman she had fallen in love with at that time. I remember asking my wife if she could potentially fall in love with me then. 
She said lightheartedly "maybe that could happen" (?). She didn't meant it in a mean way, she was oblivious to the impact it had on me. For me it was like the past 20 years were different than I thought it was, Something essential had been missing. I assumed it was there, but it wasn't. How could that be???
Still she did love me. I felt very desparate what to think.
What is this "love" and "falling in love", how to interpret it, and which is more important? Can the one exist without the other? I never asked myself that kinds of questions before, for me it was all so simple and selfevident when I considered my own feelings. 

Her desire was directed towards women, but her will was directed towards me and consequently our marriage. She loved me, but it was not stemming from desire. 
Well, that's quite puzzling to comprehend. Because my own love and desire pointed to one and the same, no difference in desire and will. 
And what do I do with being loved, but not being desired? That's not what I want, but... I love her. 
For me there was a comparable dillema as my wife had. Not being desired made me feel bad, but still my love was directed towards her and consequently our marriage.

Like you, this awareness of consequences emerged not directly after her coming-out, but during some time later (a couple of weeks or so?). Which was actually helpful because it spreaded the shock.
It's complicated to sort out these things you find yourself confronted with. 

Love (which is supported from the will) and "desire" (the emotional/feeling part) are both necessary ultimately. I think the extra complexity of a MOM with a gay/lesbian is this "desire" part can be missing. While in bi MOM, this aspect still is an integral part.
Ultimatly the "desire" aspect should be(come) part of a MOM with a gay/lesbian also. Only then it has become the complete relation that it should be.
The love supported from the will is in any case necessary as a base, without that no relation can exist for a long(er) time.

So, we're not giving up. Even if we're in the group that has about 2-3 years before splitting, those 2 years will allow us to grow. Yes, and hurt. But also learn new ways to love.

I think the outcome depends how you spend these 2-3 years. Open and honest talking, acceptance that goes both ways (very important!), trying to cope with feelings and intimacy in a constructive way, keeping within boundaries of marriage and using common sense, you'll get a long way. (it's very simple to make stupid decisions/actions that blows it all in no time)
It has to survive the initial turmoil to work things out, but the real purpose is to get to a realy-realy good relation. Better than it was before. Set your goals high, but accept it will take effort and time to get there.

(btw. Recognition theory is unknown to me)

Last edited by Dutchman (January 7, 2021 9:53 pm)

 

January 8, 2021 11:58 am  #3


Re: Recognition theory

“We had a fun romp in the first month. Both allowing desire to awaken. Seeking each other's closeness. Until I said offhand something about being in love, and he matter of factly said he wasn't in love with me any more. Which makes me wonder what it means to be "in love." He's hard pressed to define it because he's got so many unknown and novel sensations. He's a child again, in a lot of ways. But does in love mean the focus of desire?“

Us too... I felt like I was dating and falling in love all over again because I was getting to know this new side of my husband but when I suggested that, he said it didn’t feel like that at all... To him, it felt like finding out you don’t have cancer. - I can’t tell you what a devastating response that was...

Like you, we aren’t just giving up. I’m seeing a therapist and hope my husband will later join me for marriage counseling with this same therapist. I chose her intentionally because she is LGBTQ friendly and specializes in both individual and marriage counseling (and sex therapy). I don’t know where we will land. I have given myself 3 years to figure it out. In 3 years we will also be empty nesters so if the communication and attention doesn’t shift by then, there won’t be anything left anyway. (Right now he doesn’t communicate at all.)

I have a good friend who patiently listens to me and tries not to inject her advice or feelings but tiday I recapped an experience to her. I had gone to a store my husband has frequented (he has a thing for “toys”) and I was so overwhelmed by what I saw (and heard), at that point I felt I just could not compete... She asked, “do you really want to?” And there’s the crux... do I? I’m not sure. Whether or not another person is involved, do I want to compete with the desire to have things from that store be a part of his life? TBD I guess...

Good luck to you. Make use of your 2-3 years. Grow and learn. I’m 10 months in and I’ll say there’s a lot of hurt and pain still...

 

January 9, 2021 5:25 pm  #4


Re: Recognition theory

Thanks, Stronger and Dutchman. Every day feels like a month or so and brings a new set of feelings.  Yesterday he got mad at something I did. For the first time in forever. I feel like it took on new magnitude (not consciously) because he wants me to be "at fault," too. I'm still sort of shellshocked. It felt like another abandonment.

Are either of your spouses out in the rest of their lives? My husband really strongly wants to be out in every aspect of his life and I'm not in the way of that (at least not intentionally). Just wondering if that's a factor and how it works in your situations. I need a model that allows for open expression of both identities...

Also, I'm struggling to make use of my therapist. How did you know yours was a good one? What sort of support have you found most helpful?

Stronger - I hope you find the pain becoming more manageable and I'm glad you have a good friend to listen. I'd been so tied to my partner as my best friend and only outlet that reconnecting with old friends and discovering their love and support is what most sustains me. Other than the absolutely amazing kids I have.

     Thread Starter
 

January 10, 2021 2:18 pm  #5


Re: Recognition theory

Stronger wrote:

I felt like I was dating and falling in love all over again because I was getting to know this new side of my husband but when I suggested that, he said it didn’t feel like that at all... To him, it felt like finding out you don’t have cancer. - I can’t tell you what a devastating response that was...

It seems we all experience this. Initial shock, but absorbed with compassion and acceptance at first. For a short time it felt like it was only going to deepen the relation. All seems fine, love will pull us through... But then the awareness of the actual implications followed, which are very hurtful. It's when I realised my wife didn't have that important part of the feelings for me, not like I felt for her. That's bewildering to accept because I always thought it was there, but this turned out to be only a projection I had. What I thought were her feelings when we married... what I presumed was there the years after... Even when my wife told me she was lesbian, somehow I still clinged to those presumptions and didn't really comprehend the reality.
My wife suffered her own misunderstanding. She knew what she felt inside, but had no understanding of how I felt. Telling me she didn't actually fell in love with me was totally devastating to me, but she had no idea that (and how) this would impact me. She thought it was more or less obvious, and she could just tell without much worry. Sldo the openness after coming/out felt secure to tell, and of course that in itself was a good thing. But she totally underestimated what the weight and importance of my assumptions were and years of thinking this was reality (in spite of the sexual problems). She didn´t comprehend how important this was for me, after all the never really experienced that aspect in the relation and didn´t value it like I did.

It turned out there was a large gap emotionally/sexually, but I didn't fully comprehend this at first when my wife came-out. Each with our own expectations and presumptions, both misunderstanding and misreading the other and the problem facing us. Somewhere during the first months the balloon is pricked, and it's not easy when reality sinks in.

(Right now he doesn’t communicate at all.)

This worries me the most. You have to talk, and talk a lot! This is essential. Not talking is like not breathing, and will end bad.
Well, I think you yourself know that very well, but now your husband... 
I hope involving a therapist will induce it.

And there’s the crux... do I? I’m not sure.

Don't do something you don't want to. 
Initially we watched L-porn together, for me this was also a way to show I accepted her sexuality. Nothing wrong with that, and it worked out reasonably okay. Until I started to feel uneasy with it, I felt rejected and watching L-porn felt like emphasizing that feeling even more. So we talked about it, and stopped watching it for a while. Not forcing myself to do something we didn't want, but again: by TALKING about it together. Communication is absolutely the most essential thing in it all. If it's hard to start talking, maybe write a mail explaining your thoughts and feelings. At the time we sometimes used a chat program, even though we were in the same house or room even... Whatever it takes and helps to initiate conversation.

It's surely a good thing talking with a friend! Really good and helpful! But you and your husband have to (learn to) talk with each other, and that's real talk. Otherwise it's just wasting time in a situation that screams for much-needed progress in understanding each other.

 

January 10, 2021 2:20 pm  #6


Re: Recognition theory

LoneWolf wrote:

Are either of your spouses out in the rest of their lives? My husband really strongly wants to be out in every aspect of his life and I'm not in the way of that (at least not intentionally). Just wondering if that's a factor and how it works in your situations. I need a model that allows for open expression of both identities...

In a MOM the straight spouse is also "out". So it actualy concerns both, and both have to agree how to go about it. Certainly when it's towards people both spouses know or could meet.
Some people have prejudice concerning MOM's, having critizism and/or rejecting one or both spouses. That can be stressful or at least make you feel uneasy. Sometimes even more with people that like to be called "liberal". 

The first couple of years we were very much struggling and finding our way through it together. Only close friends and family knew about our situation. I don't think it would have been helpful to extend that to many others, it's problematic and painful enough and you have to focus on your private situation. But a certain (limited) number of friends one can talk with freely is actually important.

At some point we also told our children (they were teenagers and about old enough to understand, and we adjusted what we told to their level of understanding). But we thought it was necessary they knew a bit what was going on between their parents. 

Only when we worked things through, and we were confident about our choices and way forward together, we told a broader group of people (like in church for example). 

So being out to others was in line with how the stability of our relation developed. At first mostly on a need to know basis, later it was more about feeling free and wanting to express that.

Also, I'm struggling to make use of my therapist. How did you know yours was a good one? What sort of support have you found most helpful?

Couples therapy helped us a lot in general. Most importantly it helped learn to talk openly, not only during the sessions itself but also the talks we had together afterwards. 

My wife had individually help with her sexuality. I suppose it's harder to find the right therapist on that matter.
It shouldn't be rejecting SSA, or like "conversion therapy". So it must have a positive stance to self acceptance.
But not like: "go out explore and live out your sexuality!". (or go for open relations, threesomes). It's quite obvious that would kill any marriage (ie. if you want to go for a monogamous relation).
We found a therapist that was accepting but also to integrate SSA into marriage. Not considering SSA as the all defining aspect of a person, but as one part (among other parts) that makes us who we are. That took the sting out the crisis and made it much more manageable. It became a foundation on which we could build further.
After all, therapy can just help you to point in a right direction, the real work has to be done by yourself (ie. both spouses).

 

January 11, 2021 1:42 pm  #7


Re: Recognition theory

Dutchman, I can’t thank you enough for your thoughtful responses.

How did you and your wife overcome the differences in that feeling of love? Despite my husband’s near lack of communication, he insists that he wants to stay together and he is disheartened that I can’t fully commit to that at this very moment. I need communication and trust but he also continues to self sex very frequently while using porn and toys (without me). When i bring it up, he thinks I have no place in saying what he can and can’t do with his body. But to me this is a lot like sex with another person... that’s for my therapist...

But how did you and your wife finally get on the same page with each other? You’ve stayed together a long time and are happy.

 

January 12, 2021 5:36 pm  #8


Re: Recognition theory

Stronger wrote:

But how did you and your wife finally get on the same page with each other?

By acceptance that goes both ways. So I accepted my wife is lesbian AND she accepted I'm a straight man.
We're in a (monogamous) marriage so as consequence we kept intimacy going. My wife accepted I need that aspect in the relation.
If we had done this differently (sexless), it would burden me more and more. Blaming her sexual orientation for it and blocking acceptance from my side.
It also kept it the special relation aspect you only share with your spouse. Preventing it would slide into feeling just like roommates.
If only the straight spouse is expected to be accepting, it's not fair and out of balance. I think this eventually makes it impossible for the straight spouse to keep accepting, and rejection takes its place. Of course it's not about demanding and/or forcing. We both consciously and freely chose this as we both wanted to find a way towards each other. We didn't set our expectations high, and just tried to make the best of it.

We talked much, and we got better with that over time. It wasn't easy at first, my wife could put up a wall and I felt like holding a monologue. Not understanding each other, unwittingly saying something that hurt the other, she felt unsure what she could tell. Couples therapy helped us further. Talking and being open has a strong connection with acceptance (feeling secure to talk).
Honest and open talks also restored trust. Learning how my wife felt and thought, also set my mind at ease she wouldn't some day suddenly leave me for a woman.

What I write above was not the solution itself, but it set the base conditions that allowed us to go forward. 

When I later overcame feeling not being really desired as a man (this was an implicit feeling in our sexual relation that bothered me the most) things started to change.
It removed the vulnerabilty the situation had to me. As a result acceptance went to a higher level, our talking became even more open, we felt like a team and close to each other.
I'd say we then started to become "on the same page". This was one of the factors that caused my wife to allow me into the center of her feelings. Her focus was on my importance to her, and not on her sexual orientation that before had had her focus around which things were arranged.
It totally changed our sexual relation now her feelings were in it. She really enjoyed it and enjoyed me. Obviously this made it very different for me too.

So we first created a sustainable situation. Not perfect, but with healthy ingredients like acceptance and communication. Learning, letting it develop. 
Feeling secure, and trusting each other. We grew towards each other, became a close team, understanding, caring, connected.
Then all is put in place, it only needs a spark to ignite. A final putting two and two together.
Feelings come into existence as an unavoidable result.

 

January 14, 2021 4:09 pm  #9


Re: Recognition theory

Dutchman, thank you for the beautiful explanation!!! Maybe we can re-establish communication with help from our therapist and we can also stop hurting each other from our own pain. Your response gives me hope where I don’t feel much right now. Thank you!

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum