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June 25, 2020 3:15 pm  #1


15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Dutchman asked me to write some about my experiences and views on our MOM. 

But I am not going to use the nick Dutchwoman . It sounds like ... ehh well, I don't know ... it just sounds silly. You can call me Samantha. My English skills are a little less developed than Dutchmans, but I still hope that what I write is a contribution that may be helpful to others. I also find it quite difficult to tell something about myself out of the blue, so I hope you feel free to just ask questions. 

I read most what Dutchman writes on this forum and we regulary talk about it. So in some ways I already feel like I know a little bit of some you and the stories that go with it. In some cases it has even prompted us to talk about our drive and motivation. 

We have shared our ups and downs together for nearly 35 years now. There were, next to many beautiful things including our 4 kids, also some tragic periods trying to find ourselves, each other, and to discover what was important to the both of us. The last 15 years after my coming-out, (but maybe I better say, finding myself as well confronted with that fact) as a lesbian, initially shook our marriage to the core. Thankfully in later years we arrived at solid grounds and developed to the happy situation we are in. 

Dutchman has already written a lot about our MOM, very clearly and often even very aptly and enlightening (even for myself). More than once with tears in my eyes reading back about what my "coming out" had meant to him and the rejection he felt inside.I think that is also one of the reasons why it’s important to tell about our MOM and I fully support Dutchman in describing the other side of the “coming-out”. A subject you hear so little about in the media.
The culture of today is: “do not deny yourself and follow your feelings. That's who you are.” In a way as if the marriage is juist a (slightly) minor aspect and the straight partner is almost forced to accept and support almost everything to keep things going. With the intent of “I don't want to lose my partner, I don't want to deprive or deny my partner his or her feelings. I will have to learn to live with it with all the bells and whistles that must be overlooked". 

Looking back on the past 15 years I made good choices but also mistakes, it has taught and shaped me/us so much but I am happy that we went through it together. 
But especially in those early years I was very stuck, like a hand in a cookie jar, and I kept holding on to a feeling that was so important to me, and desired to stick to that feeling. A fear that if I let go of that completely, I would let go of my new found identity and would deny myself:  loosing the balance in who I was. No longer allowed to be who I am. My discovery in myself and my feelings for women became a desire on itself.I wanted to stay in my marriage, so for years I considered it as my package I had to bare. But from a kind of tunnel vision: “this is what I am and I have to live with this”. (Later I discovered nothing has proven less true).

 Unknowingly I forced myself with a sort of yoke I had to carry, that does not improve things within marriage. It actually only nourishes the lesbian side instead of nurturing the marriage both want to be in, go for, even though you both have your own feelings and experiences. It shifts the core from what a real succesful MOM actually should be, to a kind of living-together but being apart together-relation.

Well... a lot has changed since then for me (and Dutchman also of course) .


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
 

June 25, 2020 8:50 pm  #2


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

I don’t have any questions at the moment, but I wanted to thank you for your willingness to share your side of your and your husband’s story. 

 

June 26, 2020 2:34 pm  #3


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Samantha,

Thanks for sharing.

I do have a question. It's actually one my bi-husband asked. I've printed & read some of Dutchman's posts to him since they are so well-written and speak to things we're going through.
His question, was...and, in shock, too....."What? She's gay (not just bi) and stayed married & has sex with her husband?"
Probably not the exact words, but he's bi,not gay and can't understand how you could. I told him, that from what I read, that I think *please correct me, if I'm wrong!* that it looked like your love for your husband & marriage was more important to you than the other options. That your love overcame it. Is that about it? Is there more?
thanks!

 

 

June 27, 2020 6:53 pm  #4


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi SuzanneH,I think your overall understanding is correct. It is the shortened version of what happened and grew over time since my “coming-out”. And so yes there is more.
 
First of all things started with a vew basic but necessary down to the ground values we felt were needed to proceed in our marriage:
We are loyal to each other (so monogamous).
We will not live as siblings to each other (like sexless).
We accept each other as we are (and that goes both ways).
 
And I think those values were not only (at first) something to hold on to when things threatened to get out of balance, but these were also the seed (the roots of) what grew over the years:
Making choices.
Acknowledge the choices you make.
Follow up to the consequences that stem from those choices.
 
By that love is connected to faithfulness but also act of will, it’s not just some feeling.
It has been a road, not a one day trip, and i’m far from being a saint.
But sticking to these values has brought me so much, much more then my expectations.
 
For me the sexual restrained I felt towards my husband, didn’t suddenly become bigger when I found out I was lesbian. When I told my husband I was lesbian and had fallen in love with a woman, the troubles with our sexual relation I had before, didn’t change what it was already. And his desire for intimacy was the same and handling that was still as troublesome as it was. But I didn’t feel aversion towards him or his physical appearance because of that. After all, why would I? He was still the same person, just like before.
But our relation was overturned, and we had to find a way through it together. That is simply the unavoidable consequence of the choice : choosing for each other. What sense would it have to make a choice and not follow up on its definitions? And to my opinion “together” means equal, like in: it goes both ways.And not: “I will lay my burden on your shoulders”, because if I choose to only look onto my feelings and what is important to me, that would not be fair. My "new found feelings" were and are not more important then his.The sexual satisfaction I could give my husband was still there just the same. All that was before I realized to be lesbian, didn’t suddenly changed by knowing (why would it?).  I choose to continue our marriage relation, and sexuality is part of that.
Actually, because I now knew what the reason was I earlier had problems with in our sexual relation, relieved a lot of the strain . The stress not knowing was gone. I felt much more relaxed. Certainly after some time, when I got past the novelty of my discovery and things settled down and became more stable in our relation. For my husband it was complicated to find his way in all of this, feeling rejected and uneasy. For him it was searching and probing what our situation was. But we were in it together.
You love someone, or you don’t. If you do, well... do it.
I determine and I make my choices. Not because I’m somehow forced, but because I freely choose for us together. I’m not half married to someone, but with all that I am.
 
The one time sex was beter than the other time, and sometimes it was just to give the other a good time. And somestimes it was nothing, well that’s allowed as well. So it went for the both of us. But I think it actually was more problematic for my husband, he felt rejected not just physical, but as a man. He missed to be known and desired for the love he could give as a man, and all what he had to give.
For me it was never a consideration to shut the door to our sexual relation. Sometimes I drank a glass of wine to loosen up, or we watched a porn movie together. The sex on itself wasn’t “it” to me, but I never had a problem with the person I made love with, because I love him. We wanted to go for each other and our relation, and sexuality is part of that.
Sure it was very limited and not perfect at all. But we loved each other, and just because of that we chose this.
 
Above is a snapshot of the first period we went through after my coming-out. I’m glad it didn’t stop there. But this was the humble beginning situation we had to start from. Not much going for us in the sexual department, except the fact we loved each other and said yes to each other, we were comitted to make our choices based on that.But our MOM was a process, it developed.  It certainly was a problematic start and a rough road, but it also took me (and us) on a way to learn love.
 
It’s about giving yourself to the other, in full trust and security that goes beyond feeling and deliberation, and only wants to go in the direction to bring out the best and most beautiful in the other. That’s even more valuable than finding yourself.
Love gives value to your intentions.
It gives meaning to everything what en how you do something en what you think.
Love builds up the other, and doesn’t bring it down.
It longs to be with the other.
It’s interested in the other.
It feels secure and save with the other. Even when the other isn’t perfect, and neither am I.
It looks over dark valeys towards the other hilltop.
It’s commited and dedicated to the other.
 
I’ve started to realize and rejoice the value of our marriage, by keeping to these values. Our love isn’t perfect, we aren’t perfect, we make mistakes and have our specific character traits en peculiarities we sometimes walk into. But our foundation is what I wrote.
  
So I don’t put my (lesbian) sexual orientation in first place. It’s not my starting point. I’m the wife of Dutchman, and that’s what I chose. Because of that choice I don’t act on my lesbian feelings, but I don’t deny them either. But it also isn’t a yoke anymore, and I don’t feel I’m missing something. Because in the years behind me another door has opened up inside my marriage. It gives me fulfillment and what is good, also the sexual aspect.
It has filled the feeling of want and desire. Actually, it has answered it.


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

June 28, 2020 1:16 pm  #5


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Samantha,
Thank you for answering that in such detail. It sure helps me to understand, and I think it'll help him, too. I, too, believe that love is so much more than just a word. I was married for 32 years to a man so different than I, but we loved each other so much that it 'worked' better than most. We were friends first (he wasn't my type at all!), and 'grew up' together in the marriage. He passed away just after I turned 50, and even though our marriage was tough (financially and he had emotional problems), our love was strong and saw us through it all together.

I really like what you said here:
"It’s about giving yourself to the other, in full trust and security that goes beyond feeling and deliberation, and only wants to go in the direction to bring out the best and most beautiful in the other. That’s even more valuable than finding yourself.
Love gives value to your intentions.
It gives meaning to everything what en how you do something en what you think.
Love builds up the other, and doesn’t bring it down.
It longs to be with the other.
It’s interested in the other.
It feels secure and save with the other. Even when the other isn’t perfect, and neither am I.
It looks over dark valeys towards the other hilltop.
It’s commited and dedicated to the other."

I'll be sharing this with my husband. Like you two, we share these posts, especially when it'll  help us both.

take care & hope to communicate with you again.

Susanne
 
 

 

June 29, 2020 1:10 am  #6


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Thank you, Samantha, for your post. It is very helpful to hear your perspective.

 

June 29, 2020 7:59 pm  #7


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Tabby,
Somehow I feel I do not want to intrude. But I have read your posts and I wished so much there was someone there for you, to talk to, face to face. Put an arm around your shoulder and help you up. Standing up on your own two feet, put you in front of a mirror  and make you say to yourself : I am a beautiful and valuable woman and I am proud of who I am. Not because I am idle but because it is the truth.
I may have my flaws, I may not be perfect, and I might even want things different in my life, Oh gosh yes, I even want my bellybutton slightly to be moved a little (I don’t know ;) ) but I am worthy and precious. That’s who  I am and that’s what I believe!
Whatever is going on right now is not my fault. It is not because of me. It was never because of me.  It is NOT me that is wrong in this picture.
It is so important that you believe, acknowledge, yourself.
Stand straight with your shoulders up, right there in the core of that faith and let it strengthen and reinforce you. Somehow those words seem the same but are in fact totally different. The first is for your inner self, and the second is more of a thriving force outwards.
 
I wish you above all His close presence and His comforting arms around you!
 

Last edited by SamanthaNL (June 29, 2020 8:31 pm)


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

June 29, 2020 9:14 pm  #8


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

SamanthaNL wrote:

So I don’t put my (lesbian) sexual orientation in first place. It’s not my starting point. I’m the wife of Dutchman, and that’s what I chose. Because of that choice I don’t act on my lesbian feelings, but I don’t deny them either. But it also isn’t a yoke anymore, and I don’t feel I’m missing something. Because in the years behind me another door has opened up inside my marriage. It gives me fulfillment and what is good, also the sexual aspect.
It has filled the feeling of want and desire. Actually, it has answered it.

Hi Samantha,

I know it might be a bit personal and all that, so don't respond if you don't want to but I am wondering what you are meaning about 'another door opening up'.

Thanks, Lily
 

 

June 30, 2020 1:59 pm  #9


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hello Lily, I thank you for your question and I do want to answer! And as this day went by I thought of it a lot. I just did not find the time today to sit down and write, for me it takes a little time to write in Dutch and then translate in English and I don’t want to give you a abbreviated (? I hope this is a good word for it) answer. I will respond as soon as I can, I hope you don’t mind.
Untill soon!!  


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

July 1, 2020 5:04 pm  #10


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

lily wrote:

 I know it might be a bit personal and all that, so don't respond if you don't want to but I am wondering what you are meaning about 'another door opening up'. 

Hi Lily, sorry it took a little longer to respond!!  

And again thank you for your question,
It is a bit hard to explain because it holds so much more than just a feeling.
 
It’s not just about a profound longing, or even desire of willingness, nor just a well paved path with strong intention to share your life with someone because you deeply care for someone.
Not just somehow making my lesbian feelings secondary nor just considering my lesbian feelings of less value than to what I felt for my husband. 
But moreover it required all of my heart.
 
You yourself made a somewhat comparable comparison between two opposites actually a while ago in a discussion with Dutchman, and described it as two magnets that do not hold because one of the sides is the wrong side of the magnet.
Well…If I may take this example again…
I can describe my “door” as figuring out (contemplating) the why for the magnets didn’t connect in the first place yet : because until then I didn’t understand, the distinction between “giving with all my willingness” or “giving the whole of my heart”. And I began to grasp a couple of things. For one thing the purpose of marriage and what love in that regard really means and that turned my focus on to another important aspect I discovered in myself that made it difficult to really be one with my husband. My heart had a restricted area, a section still closed off and mine to keep. From that area I tried to maintain a marriage that I wanted, but only from my point of reference, like:  “I am lesbian so bare with me…”
So, I had to open that door to let myself out as it were… loosen the grip it had on me. I can choose how much gravity I give my feelings. And I can choose what I value more.
I think you could call that the turning of one of the magnets….
Or the doorhandle that I could open.
 
It reached my heart. Being able to feel my husband with my heart and being aware of what that meant. Because something had changed, something else was set in motion. I began to understand something that I could not dismiss if I wanted to be honest to myself, or my husband, or my faith: This is who I am, this is who I want to be, this is what I believe. 
 
It bridged my feelings, the letting go of hanging on to my lesbian feelings as the focal point importance, made room to start being connected to his heart, his being a man, his being what I needed.
I was able to see him in who he was as a man. And that felt awesome..
That was the door that needed to be opened. That was the door I went through and instead of focusing on what I didn’t have, I began to be grateful for what I had with him, and see/understand what that meant. Over a period of time it grew into something more...as in going over the threshold, and discover what’s behind the door….
I also started to see what my way of dealing with things before had done to him, (or evenly important, the lack of what I should have felt for him, had brought him because of me being a lesbian).
Something entirely new grew next to what was.
You see…it didn’t change the circumstances, but it changed me in the circumstances.
 
No, I am not miraculously healed or cured, I still consider myself lesbian.
This what I feel is only towards my husband.,.and never expected to happen...And see that as the cherry on the cake. 
I do not see myself connecting with an other man. Thankfully I don’t need to, but lets say if my husband got in an accident (I hate to pick this example but I don’t have another way explaining it) and I should have to start all over again, I’m sure it would not be with a man .
 
Over time that what grew by the opening of that door, changed my innerself and grew further into fully enjoying our sexual relation, and receive and being able to give back with all my heart. And at the risk of displaying some sort of romantic lovestory… this is the short version of “my door”.
Not the frontdoor of the house that opened up to everyone.
But the door of my heart opened building a party between us in our MOM, instead of just trying to find the best way through a difficult situation.
 
Maybe my writing does not cover everything somehow. Going from point A to B is not just following a roadmap and then you’ll get there. Much of what happened in regard to this, happened in my head and heart.
 


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

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