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October 9, 2018 1:16 pm  #31


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Ellexoh_nz wrote:

    OOHC is right. While still caught in the trap of hope that my 34 r'ship can be saved, and also not quite believing it will end......every day a little piece of what I believed in gets chipped away. He doesn't know it because he doesn't like talking about it, and I've stopped thinking that getting him to talk about it will help.
I know I'll have to be the one to do it. 
So every day I see him in a different light. And I know as I pare and chip away at my r'ship...one day there may be nothing left, all the hopes and dreams gone....but he probably won't even notice because he's left it all to me. 

I know exactly what you mean. That has been the last two years, pretty much, for me except I finally gave up after being shut down for bringing up how I was still reeling from the last lot of gay porn. I knew it was futile. Because if he couldnt bear the discomfort of hearing me share with him my misgivings, thoughts and stress, knowing me as he does as a person who needs to talk about things, then there really was no hope. It was the beginning of the end of our marriage. I just didn’t know what to do next and was crippled and trapped  by fear of being the horrible person who broke up the family. Which explains the relief I felt when I saw his history - this was my out.

My mind is still going to the places in our marriage/relationship  that was uniquely us. The things we laughed at, ridiculed, silly stuff. That makes me sad. However it doesn’t supersede what was very wrong, leaving me in a no-Mans land of depression, over eating and binge watching tv shows- basically neglecting myself.

This shit is hard.

 

October 9, 2018 4:28 pm  #32


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

PennyD wrote:

My mind is still going to the places in our marriage/relationship that was uniquely us. The things we laughed at, ridiculed, silly stuff. That makes me sad. However it doesn’t supersede what was very wrong, leaving me in a no-Mans land of depression, over eating and binge watching tv shows- basically neglecting myself.
This shit is hard.

 

Yip....really fucking hard. What's sad for me is that even though he's said he's left all that stuff behind....he can't see what all that stuff has done to me. And even if he never sucks another cock....I will never trust him not to. It's the lack of appreciation of, and lack of respect for me that I can't get past, and he's too wrapped up in his unemotional/reserved/concrete/black & white world to see these as necessary to our survival


*between a rock and a hard place*
 

October 9, 2018 5:28 pm  #33


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Ellexoh, 
      Yep.  We have to do it because part and parcel of being a closeted or in denial gay person is a lack of courage and a well honed ability to make excuses for oneself and to blame everything and everyone to avoid taking responsibility for who/what one is.  And I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it's not that he can't see, it's that he doesn't care to see--or admit--or even plain old care, what it's done to you.
    Penny, it does sound as if you and and I married very similar people.  I am here to tell you, though, that it does get better.  But it only gets better when you get away from that tar baby of need.   
      I can't tell you how many times my stbx wrote or told me something like, "I've had a terrible summer/fall/winter" to elicit my care, or, when I pushed him, "please be patient with me."  Once I saw the pattern, though, it didn't work on me any more.  I alluded to Star Wars before ("the force of denial was strong in me") and here's another to describe what happened when I learned to see his calls for help or his appeals through another lens: "Your jedi mind tricks don't work on me [any longer] ."  
   You say that you are pressured at work right now: that's a form of temporizing and putting off what you know you need to do because it's going to be hard.  I know, because I did it, too.  But the truth is there's no good time, and it doesn't get easier.  I thought that as I'd done so much work before I left him it would be easier once I did.  But you still have to go through the painful feelings that accompany actually splitting up the marriage.  There's no way around it.  You're going to have to go through the grief, and the anger, and deal with the bullshit that he's going to try to pull.  My stbx, eight months after I moved into my own apartment, is STILL trying the "sad sausage" routine on me--last week he wrote to say that the pain of divorcing after 35+ years is so hard, and I'm the only one who knows what it's like, and yet I'm the one person he can't talk to about it.  I just looked at that and thought: man, you don't learn, do you?  And, consequences, baby.  And, and why is it we're divorcing a**shole?  And also, do you really think that's going to work on me now?  And I didn't reply. 
   My advice: get as far away from him as you can.  If you can't leave the house, don't sleep in the same bed/bedroom, and tell him he's not welcome in the room where you sleep.  
   
   
   

 

October 9, 2018 6:48 pm  #34


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

I've said this before and I'll say it again, though most people will disagree with me: 
When a man willingly, (I use this term because some may have been forced but regardless they all claim they are straight), succumbs to having sex with another man, he has willingly revoked his right to being called a man. Another post mentioned 'forsaken women' and defiled himself. Those ring so true. He somehow changes his inner core to never return.
There are no excuses! 
If there was a machine with a gauge to tell for every man I'd attempt to date, I'd run it over him and walk away if it came up positive.
Yet this activity is being pushed as normal and men are encouraged to experience! It's destroying families. It's destroying them but they are too selfish to realize it. 
Penny stay your guard! 
If any man would take the chance to jepordize everything he owns for a cheap thrill in the beginning, then he'll only be more willing to do it again after he's caught knowing that he'll be forgiven. 
Wishing you all the best of courage and hope to let this sap go wallow in his gay crap.
You are young and can do so much better! 
 

Last edited by Scrupulous (October 9, 2018 6:51 pm)

 

October 10, 2018 3:23 am  #35


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Thank you everyone for your advice, support, reality checks.

I was dreading going home today. Not like me to hang around work longer than I need to either. Husband being super nice, sad and hesitant and he rushed off to get canned beans for dinner even though a few days ago he would have whined and been pissed off.

When I sat down with him I asked him what he understands about what’s happening - he said he wasn’t sure but that he’d made a terrible mistake. And would I go to see a sex therapist. I said No. He had that opportunity 2 years ago or at any time really and had never suggested it and turned me down outright after the first lot of porn. I told him again that I was done and wanted to figure out what next. He looked shaken but held himself together. We talking about the gay porn, the whys and he took me through all his past sexual experiences in details I’ve never heard him say before. He talked about having no ED issues with gfs in his 20’s and 30’s until his 40’s with me. He thought my affairs had impacted his confidence and then he got too afraid to keep trying.

He also mentioned an older man who invited him back to his house for some weed and who then came out of his room with a robe on and masturbated in front of him - and how he left soon after thinking it was fucked up but that if he was honest he thought about what it would be like to have sex with a man. He has told this story to me before but now he is linking his current gay curiosity with that incident. He talked about the progression from certain types of lingerie, kink to our fucked up sex life. Says that he is fucked up about sex.

I just said to him that the bottom line is that he is allowed to want what he wants, but I want different things. We have never gelled in that way.
He talked about giving up drinking regardless because he’s afraid for his health - and he needs to do it for him. Funny he realises that now. 
We talked about whether to sell the house and what needs to be done, whether he stays in it or I do and what we can afford. We both agreed we will need to get some things organised which means we will have to stay in the house together at least for 2-3 months - I said I wasn’t sure but he’s welcome to suss out our finances himself (something he’s never helped with or been interested in). So I’m interested to see if he does.

He denied being gay again and I told him he should go try it as only one way to find out. Funny how he now expresses disgust at the idea. I felt like it was too comfortable the way we were talking but I also felt relief because it was a calm talk. He promised me he wouldn’t do that under this roof. But then we haven’t split up yet. So wel see.

Connecting and talking is of course exactly what he knows I love to do. There’s a part of me that was thinking - this is all I’ve wanted and starting to get panicky at turning away from it to the unknown and fending for myself.

The other part of me knows this won’t last, but also whispers, maybe the gay lit is just a quick relief and quickly forgotten because I’m pretty sure he’s never acted on it. But then I think about how I told him 2 years  I would leave him if it happened again and he obviously didn’t believe I would.

He said an idea is we could stay in the house together for a year and pay more off and said he’d be lying if he wasn’t going to do everything he can to win me back. It’s all abit up and down at present - but I really need to get in a position to go. I could imagine just slipping back into the trap and then I’d never get out.

OOHC - you know exactly where I’m at right now - how long after you gave in to the “sad sausage” did he go back to same old same old?

I need a reality check here.

     Thread Starter
 

October 10, 2018 8:35 am  #36


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Penny,
    Before I answer your question I would like to say that your husband's willingness to sit and talk with you is him, attempting to soften you up.  He's trying to put off the moment of truth(s).  He attempted to win your understanding and sympathy (the softening up and appeal), he blame-shifted (his ED is your fault, for the affairs), and he bargained (how about going to a therapist? he'll stop drinking! ), and he temporized (what about living together a year?), telling you he would love-bomb you to "win you back."  
    You are right to see this as the smokescreen it is and know that it won't last.  What he says when you pin him down is nothing; what he's done--repeatedly and for years--is what you have to "listen" to.  
   Now the question: the fact is, my stbx never really stopped the same old same old.  My situation is different than yours because my stbx is not gay in denial but an autogynephilie (a man who is sexually attracted to the idea of himself as a woman), and he declared that he still wanted to stay married to me, but as my wife.  My fall for the sad sausage "comfort me; it's going to be so difficult to transition" (he decided eventually it would be too hard, including on his vanity and pride, because he wouldn't pass as a woman, and knowing he wasn't a woman while posing as one interfered in his sexual pleasure in a way that his fantasies in the bedroom and house didn't, and decided to stay in the closet, expecting I would stay there with him).  What's the same in our stories is exactly what made you ask "were you a witness to the 25 years of my marriage?"
   Even when I had agreed to try to accommodate the changes he decreed and demanded, and I thought "we" were a committed couple working through this new phase of our marriage, he lied and he acted behind my back, and he never acted as if he were committed to me or to our marriage.  It was all "do it my way," with no accommodation on his part of my needs and no understanding of what I was going through.  He met my need to communicate with silence or anger or "be patient with me."  If I told him my feelings he took them as attacks on him and gave me the silent treatment, first, and then withdrew physical touch.  That's when I really knew it was all a sham--a year and a half later.  And it took me another year and a half to leave.  Three years I subjected myself to blows on my self esteem and psyche; three years that I could have used for myself, tied up in his disorder; three years more of an abusive situation that takes a long-term toll and requires longer to process and free oneself from.  Please don't do this any longer to yourself.
   That's my reality check for you: he's not going to change.  You maneuvered him into a position in which he had to talk, and to preserve the status quo he offered a series of weasly promises designed to appeal to you, drawn from his understanding of the dynamic in your marriage.  And you are right that you now have to follow through on the boundary you set--"if this happens again I'm done"--because if you don't, he'll know that he can get away with it.  
 

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (October 10, 2018 8:40 am)

 

October 10, 2018 10:32 am  #37


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Penny,  my heart breaks for you, truly. Adding to OOHC, you “asked how long after the sad sausage did he go back to being the same old sot”.  Mine got worse .

I can only share my experiences with you, regarding my still GID XH.  Who is now with another woman, does not WANT to be gay and I have no proof that he ever did anything with a man.  I can only talk about what I lived through and what I have been able to piece together out of the “clues”.  I’ve got a lot going on in the next few days, so will just say what my gut responses are to your last post.

In 2011 when he went into rehab and his gay counselor told me “there were other issues “ and I lovingly asked him, just tell me the truth “are you gay?”  That was probably the closest thing to an admission ever.  He was a total mess, cried no, but then would cry that his whole life had been a lie, that he had spent his whole life trying to make women happy.  Then on the other hand tell me that the ED issues were because I had emasculated him, by being such a strong woman.  Whatever, I was told that I needed to go to my own group for people who loved people with addiction issues.  So that started me in the track of detaching with love.   TGT was a new thought in my mind that I would dismiss in a heartbeat.

When he came out of rehab and was off drugs, that was the first time I became afraid of him, I was living with someone I didn’t know (after 18 years).  That was the time he killed my dog.   I threw him out and was getting a divorce, period!

He was only out if the house a month or so, but he kept coming around, working on the house to sell it (all control ).  Somehow , the master manipulator love bombed me.   Said he couldn’t live without me, ended up having several days of the most incredible sex we had ever had (so wow stupid me, he can’t be gay, he does love me, he just had a plain pill addiction, blah blah blah and I took him back). In my own defense I was only six months post brain surgery, had a lot I was recovering from physically and re learning a lot of things mentally.

At any rate, the honeymoon didn’t last long, he retired, my Mom died.  I moved to the country with him and BAM. I was then living with a lunatic.  That’s when he told me he was going to do whatever he wanted to do.  Started growing marijuana and doing all kinds of drugs.  Moved into the guest room and had quite the collection of dildos.  Was chasing other women all around town, but was infatuated with his new male best friend.  As someone else has described, looking back I was the frog in the pot of boiling water.  The mental abuse was severe, everything was my fault.  I was a bitch.  I was too good, too honest (his favorite thing to yell at me. Probably because he knew I would not keep his secret if he admitted it).  He hated everything about me and basically everything that our life had been about.  Country and gospel music. All of a sudden he despised it, would sit in his garage getting high, blaring heavy metal rock.

I felt trapped and having no support, started losing my mind.  Contemplated suicide.  All I had was a beautiful home and money.  Thank God I started going to a therapist (who happened to be a lesbian , I said in my story , she always looked like she just wanted to secretly shake the shit out of me).

Whatever it was, yes I’m a strong person.  Somehow I finally hit rock bottom and decided I wanted a life.  When my step brother cane to help me leave.  I took one hour to gather my things, XH just sat there in silence.  I actually had two men there that night.  He knew the gig was up.  Of course as soon as I left he started telling the world that I was crazy (you read my story). 

I guess my point is, I lived through YEARS of the up and down cycle.  Brief periods of small happiness Buried in delusions and denial.  Feeling sorry for HIM.  Feeling like a bad wife if I left him in his time of need.  YEARS spent trying to “fix him”, “help him”. After all he was the love of my life, my best friend (all based on the first few years of the perfect marriage, memories memories memories. All based on lies).  I was the real person, he was the actor.

Don’t fall for it Penny, there is a better life out there. A happier one for you, you asked for a reality check.  The reality check is, he can’t change.

 

October 10, 2018 1:33 pm  #38


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Thank you to both of you for your thoughtful replies. It means a lot that even though you don’t know me you are taking the time to share your experiences and support.

Sad sausage is back this morning although he was looking at our financial situation and said to me it would be best if I started looking for a place as he is too overwhelmed. That’s fine with me as I would like a fresh start, this house holds too many memories - good and bad.

There’s not a lot out there at the moment so will keep an eye out as don’t need to leave tomorrow.

OOHC - your story is rather different to mine and you showed tenacity in staying and attempting to accommodate your GIDX. That being said, there are similar themes and behaviours and you are right - I was pretty clear what would happen last time and he made a choice. And choices have consequences.

ATM im just holding onto what I know which is regardless of whether he is gay or not, only he can know that, I don’t want to be married to someone I can’t trust or respect. I feel pity for him but that is not enough. As Kel says in her quote “we are not required to set ourselves on fire to keep others warm” - and that’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve been unhappy in this marriage for so long, and felt trapped and depressed. That’s what I’m going to remind myself of in my weak moments.

I’m sad and scared of the future, of being lonely and being poorer, which is never fun. However I may also thrive and I’m looking at doing something very different for the next 4 years to upskill myself and have a solid well paid career until I retire. So there are possibilities on the horizon.

Well, thank you once again. Will keep you updated. Take care.

     Thread Starter
 

October 12, 2018 2:20 pm  #39


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Well, this is something different.

My husband took himself off to see a therapist yesterday. I recommended her to him if he felt he needed someone to talk all this through with, which I’m now kicking myself for, as I was thinking about seeing her myself. Old habits die hard of looking out for others over myself.

This is the first time in our relationship he has ever gone to a counsellor. I told him if he went it would have to be for himself and not as a means of keeping me from leaving. I must admit I was curious as to what they discussed but in hindsight it is probably best he doesn’t share it with me as then it could inhibit him from being totally honest with her - in that it becomes all about telling me rather than getting real insight for himself.

But of course, he did tell me - She told him that watching/reading gay porn in and of itself doesn’t mean he is gay- she asked him about our sex life and he told her some of it but not all - not the dominating fantasies, dildoes etc. but the impotence, me giving him a handjob and him giving me oral sex.  He is now making the link between his gay porn and an incident when he was in his 20’s where an older man masturbated in front of him. He has told me this before but added in the “I’m going to be honest, I wondered what it would be like”.

He told her about his excessive drinking and the damage he’s done to his family with that. Anyway, long story short - his anxiety and shitty coping skills to manage difficult emotions he often doesn’t realise he’s having seem to lead him to self harming behaviours such as drinking and looking for sexual release in gay porn.

At the moment I am focussing on what I want and need rather than get caught up in HIS anguish and going into my old mode of saver/fixer. I don’t know if he is gay or not - what I do know is that I don’t want to have sex with him, I don’t want to continually see images of him in my head sucking cocks or taking it up the arse - regardless of whether it’s a fantasy or not. I don’t want to dominate him in fantasy play - it’s not me. Never has been.
I don’t want to be with someone who drinks themselves senseless every weekend while I’m lying in bed binge watching Netflix so I don’t have to see him drunk (Funnily enough he hasn’t touched a drop since I outed him).

I want to figure out who I am and what I DO want. And I’m going to focus on that for now. At the moment I’m ok to stay in my house with him until I figure out what I want to do - but I am no longer willing to lie to myself or settle for less than I want or truly want and need.

Your thoughts on all this would be most welcome.

     Thread Starter
 

October 12, 2018 6:01 pm  #40


Re: Old Member Back with TGT once again

Your impulse to focus on yourself is the right one. I'd suggest that you tell him you don't want to hear about his therapy sessions, either, and then stick to your guns on that.  Him telling you about them leads to you thinking about him and his issues, which is exactly the point for him.  He's trying to use this therapy--or at least what he's telling you about it--as a means to get you to stay.  If you're determined to separate and divorce, then staying in the house with him is flirting with danger.  My two cents.

 

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