Straight Spouse Network Open Forum

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



Wed Nov 9 9:02 pm  #21


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thanks Lily and JK for sharing. You've both touched on a longstanding question: is being gay nature or nurture? In practical terms this is a debate between two philosophies: people are born gay (nature) or somehow become gay (choice/nurture). When people start to debate nature vs nurture, I say three things:

1. What in your childhood made you a heterosexual? 
2. When did you make the choice to be straight?
3. If sexuality is by choice or environment, I'd like you to spend a week choosing to be gay. 

Heterosexuality is the accepted norm because straight people represent the majority of the population. So we don't question why people are straight. They just are. Why then do we obsess about gay people? I believe this is an argument between positive and negative feelings about homosexuality. We focus on things that make others different. It goes without saying that most gay people vigorously defend the nature argument. They believe they were born gay and most younger people these days believe that being gay is beautiful. I tend to side with them because they are gay and, as such, are the best judges of this issue. (Straight people explaining how gay people feel would be a bit like a white man like me explaining the "Black Lives Matter" movement.) The counter argument is more negative and I'll call that group 'choicers.' Choicers typically make the nuture argument along negative lines. They often see being gay as lesser than, sinful, or even dangerous. They refer to an absent father, dominant mother, child abuse, lifestyle choice, sex addiction etc. Choicers have used the nuture argument for years to promote things like conversion therapy, a therapy whereby LGB people can apparently overcome their same sex attractions. Choicers are almost always straight people trying to explain away homosexuality...and this includes my own ex-wife. 

When I came out in 2012, my (then) wife made similar statements like you've shared here. She made it her mission to cure me of being gay. She said I was gay because of external issues like my absent father, domineering mother, and a priest who felt me up when I was 9 or 10 years old. This seems to echo the 'lack of role models' JK was referring to in her post. For the record, I firmly believe that I was born gay. I was five when I first felt attracted to a man.  

Given what you've both shared here, I wonder why the two older brothers didn't also turn out to be gay. And aren't these older (macho) brothers role models? These boys were all raised by the same parents in the same environment. I won't argue with the fact that most gay men, including me, are very close to their mothers. But I don't believe moms make their sons gay just like I don't believe that all women close to their moms become lesbians. If we use the nurture argument, if a mother taking her son to musicals and buying him jewelry boxes results in a gay son, then fathers taking daughters to baseball games and buying them hockey equipment would logically create lesbian daughters. I believe moms are close to their sons because they are gay. In my case, I think my mom felt a disconnect between me and my father so she stepped in to fill the void...although I've always been very close to my dad even to this day. My sister has twin daughters and one is a lesbian while her twin sister is heterosexual. This shouldn't be possible given the nurture argument. 

Turning back to my case, I had a stable home, a straight older sister, and loving parents. My partner is the older brother while his younger brother is straight. The "absent dad" argument is too easy to make. Who didn't have a quiet, hard-working dad and an overbearing, talkative mother? I was very close to my father so did this make me feel an attraction towards men? But wait I was also very close to my mom so shouldn't this have made me feel an attraction to women? And why aren't all the children of same-sex couples gay as well? I think there is an overwhelming need to find external forces that result in gay children because for a time society was obsessed with fixing the homosexual child. So what's my point? I think we've moved to a point that we're no longer trying to portray gay people as broken, weaker or corrupt.

BUT I understand why straight spouses need answers. Mine went through the same thing because she thought these answers would fix me and our marriage. She wanted to heal me. My final point is whether you believe in nature vs nurture, it doesn't change the fact that I am only attracted to men. And once out, I simply can't see myself going back into the closet. For decades I tried to be a straight man and failed miserably at it. I hope that helps in some way. 

Last edited by Séan (Wed Nov 9 9:07 pm)

 

Wed Nov 9 9:46 pm  #22


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

JK wrote: 

"I'm SO glad everyone on this board has said that it's very common for the gay spouse to try to go back into that closet.  My husband wants to do that, instead of getting divorced.  I have told him, "You know that you are not a straight man.  You need to be honest with yourself."

Great post. That's exactly how you should handle this JK. These are the facts, the facts confirm you're gay, this is what I'm doing without you, you need to be honest and get your sh*t together. I know from experience this situation hurts like hell but you're doing the right thing and proving to be a wonderful example of strength and honesty for your children. As Emerson wrote: "Who you are speaks so loudly, I can't hear what you're saying." Your courage is helping a lot of other spouses currently hearing "it's just a phase" or "it was only one time" from lying husbands as they continue to hook up via Craig's List and surf gay porn. Be well my friend.  
 

     Thread Starter
 

Wed Nov 9 9:59 pm  #23


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Jkpeace and Sean what you both said really resonated with me. I am almost divorced and what really spurred me onward was discovery of sex videos on his secret fuck phone that showed him giving blowjobs and having anal sex with men. I denied and spackled over the years the things I found on his browser history, of craigslist hook ups etc. But having those videos really slapped me in the face, this is real he is cheating big time! I am your classic chump, always forgiving, always giving out chances.

What resonated was him being a crying puddle of remorse and then telling or threatening me that he will go find another woman and be honest and straight with her. And for some reason it still would plant a seed of doubt in me that what if hes saying is true? Would I be missing out on his change of heart? Would I be sorry I did not wait for his transformation? I know I sound stupid and silly but some part of me still wants to believe him.

Well, I am still going through with the divorce I just want Sean's perspective on what the gay spouse is really saying when they tell their straight spouse this. I just did not want to go back to the agony and heartbreak again but I am still ruminating on what happened to me. By reading the various insights here it somehow helps in my healing. 
 

 

Wed Nov 9 10:19 pm  #24


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Welcome Grace! In reply: 

"What resonated was him being a crying puddle of remorse and then telling or threatening me that he will go find another woman and be honest and straight with her. And for some reason it still would plant a seed of doubt in me that what if hes saying is true? Would I be missing out on his change of heart? Would I be sorry I did not wait for his transformation? I know I sound stupid and silly but some part of me still wants to believe him. Well, I am still going through with the divorce I just want Sean's perspective on what the gay spouse is really saying when they tell their straight spouse this. I just did not want to go back to the agony and heartbreak again but I am still ruminating on what happened to me. By reading the various insights here it somehow helps in my healing." 

A cheating gay husband saying he'll find another woman and be honest and straight with her reminds me of that funny scene in "Blazing Saddles" where Bart takes himself hostage by pointing a gun...at himself! It's absurd. This sounds like a gay in denial (or "GID") narcissist husband blowing hot and cold. You're not stupid nor silly Grace. You're kind, courageous, and a hell of a lot more honest than this twisted man still claiming he's straight in the face of overwhelming evidence. In other posts, I've referred to denial as akin to a drug or alcohol addiction. It simply warps someone beyond recognition. I also believe that GID husbands are radioactive so you're well advised to stay away while protecting yourself from all fallout. Of course you want your husband to be straight. We all want our marriages back. I didn't want to be gay. I wish I could have stayed with my wife, but it would have killed me or I would have killed her spirit through a lack of love and attention. But the truth is the truth. He's threatening you because he's losing you. Stay the course and please keep posting here. 

     Thread Starter
 

Thu Nov 10 4:12 am  #25


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing JK. There is no need for you or anyone else posting here to apologize for anything you've written. This is your forum, your feelings are valid, and (short of insults) little bothers me these days. I fully understand a spouse's need to get it all out from time to time so no offence taken...ever. I think all the straight spouses here should receive congressional medals of honor, or perhaps the order of Canada for our Canadian friends. Please keep your questions coming as I'm learning a lot by sharing with all of you. 

     Thread Starter
 

Fri Nov 11 6:24 am  #26


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Lynn wrote:

He put up multiple barriers (house clean, no morning sex, nothing unless we are both very freshly showered, etc.) He said he was angry and turned off by how "aggressive" I was about sex. Which I wasn't! Due to his extensive travel schedule the most I ever even hoped for was once a week - which definitely did not happen.

I've also learned that over the years (but not since marriage) he hooked up with probably a hundred men and watched gay porn. By the way we are late 40s so those 100 men are spread over many years. His one heterosexual relationship was with a small short haired Asian woman. (I mention that only because I've read gay men often choose Asian women as partners - not sure if it is true.) that relationship did last a long time.

My husband is the same about hygiene when it comes to sex.  Shower first, bath first, etc..  When he "plans" any sexual activity it involves a shower and bath first.  I have only been with one guy before my husband and he was not bothered if I was all sweaty from a long ways drive or a day at work.  He would not wait for me to freshen up first.  Would this be a gay thing or is there straight men that's also like this?  I never thought about this before though it indicated to me that he could not be very passionate and urgent in his need to be with me.

Same with the idea that people might accidently see us.  While I would have no care that someone could peek through our window and see us (why would they do that in the first place? That never even crosses my mind), he can get obsessed about it and leave me in the middle of our make out session to make sure the blinds are all closed. 

Last one, never ever will he get worked up in public places and try to get into my pants.  I loved that about my ex boyfriend and we would rush somewhere private.  All my husband cares about is that I will hold his hand in public (for people to see he is with a woman??).

All this is very confusing, but mostly disappointing.  There is a complete lack of passion and spontaneity which I crave.



 

 

Fri Nov 11 6:29 am  #27


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

O yes, my husband also had only one hetero sexual relationship that lasted 5 years.  I always found that odd and asked him about it when we were still dating, but he got me all confused about his explanation so I dropped it.

 

 

Fri Nov 11 8:21 am  #28


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

In response to Mrs. Lonely's last post:

1. He put up multiple barriers (house clean, no morning sex, nothing unless we are both very freshly showered, etc.) He said he was angry and turned off by how "aggressive" I was about sex. Which I wasn't! Due to his extensive travel schedule the most I ever even hoped for was once a week - which definitely did not happen.

​I think these are the 'grooming' habits of a narcissist. Not grooming in the sense of hygiene, but more in the sense of slowly controlling their partners with ridiculous rules. While I never did this, I would often turn the tables on my straight spouse when she asked for sex.

2. My husband is the same about hygiene when it comes to sex.  Shower first, bath first, etc..  When he "plans" any sexual activity it involves a shower and bath first.  I have only been with one guy before my husband and he was not bothered if I was all sweaty from a long ways drive or a day at work.  He would not wait for me to freshen up first.  Would this be a gay thing or is there straight men that's also like this?  I never thought about this before though it indicated to me that he could not be very passionate and urgent in his need to be with me.

I was never this obsessed with hygiene, I was more obsessed with avoiding sex with my straight wife at all costs. It sounds more like your gay husbands were finding ways to avoid having sex, while placing the blame on you. I did this while in full gay in denial narcissism mode. Why? Because gay men simply aren't attracted to women. So while I could always perform in my 20s or 30s, having sex with a woman always felt like I was having sex with my sister. As gay porn eventually became my sexual outlet, having sex with my straight wife was less and less interesting and required me to shut my eyes and imagine sex with men. (A number of women in mixed orientation marriages have shared that sex with their gay spouses requires sex toys and pornography in order for their gay husbands to perform.) And once I dared have sex with another man, the gender I was truly attracted to, this effectively shut the door on me ever having sex with my straight spouse ever again. I so regret the rejection and emotional neglect my ex-wife must have felt over the years.    

3. Same with the idea that people might accidently see us.  While I would have no care that someone could peek through our window and see us (why would they do that in the first place? That never even crosses my mind), he can get obsessed about it and leave me in the middle of our make out session to make sure the blinds are all closed. Last one, never ever will he get worked up in public places and try to get into my pants.  I loved that about my ex boyfriend and we would rush somewhere private.  All my husband cares about is that I will hold his hand in public (for people to see he is with a woman??). All this is very confusing, but mostly disappointing.  There is a complete lack of passion and spontaneity which I crave.

Fascintating. I think you've perfectly described the gay in denial spouse. Early on in the relationship, we're just happy to be having sex and, perhaps like me, relieved to be straight. For me it was, "I'm not gay because I can have sex with a woman and enjoy it. I'm straight!" So we can perform, for a time. However, age and pornography slowly kill all intimacy as the gay spouse secretly explores his/her true sexuality. But porn could only satisfy me to a point. I sought out the real thing by hiring escorts, then having anonymous sex with other men, and finally finding a long-term male partner. With regards to the doublespeak, blaming, and your confusion, these are all common in narcissist/co-dependent relationships. The (gay) narcissist constantly keeps the (straight) co-dependent off balance to hide his/her true sexuality. The straight co-dependent spouse goes to even greater lengths to make the relationship work, while feeling increasingly rejected, confused, and even depressed.

​Thank you for sharing Mrs Lonely. I've learned something from your posts.  

Last edited by Séan (Fri Nov 11 9:20 am)

     Thread Starter
 

Fri Nov 11 9:21 am  #29


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hi Sean, 
When you get a chance, can you take a look @ a post I wrote to you on Wednesday night? It’s not urgent; I just don’t want it to get lost/forgotten

thanks in advance, 
CT

 

Fri Nov 11 10:35 am  #30


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

I'm so sorry I missed your post/questions. In reply:

​"My question is regarding gay porn/pics. In 2013, I discovered by pure accident gay porn videos & links to pics of naked men on my GIDH tablet.  Found similar things on his cell phone, both dating back several months. the usual ensued (denial of SSA, saying he was only ‘curious’ because of his h/o childhood sexual abuse, etc). stayed together because I believed him. of course it’s never left my mind. I can’t unsee or unknow. How soon after watching gay porn did you venture into ‘real life’ experiences? I know everyone is different, but it appears to be a common occurrence that eventually most GID men go from gay porn to hook ups. and please be completely honest (& blunt if needed) & share of any signs/behaviors I should be looking for."

​I started looking at gay porn pictures in the late 90s, then videos in the early 2000s, and I really got hooked on gay porn and videos starting around 2002-2003. Pornography actually became an addiction which I kicked via a 12-step programme for pornography addiction. I've now been porn-free for just over two years. Getting back to your question, my first real-life hook up was with a male escort in 2010 - so roughly eight years after I really started watching gay porn heavily. I started using a gay sex app called Grindr (although there also exists Scruff, Hornet and perhaps others) in 2012 after coming out to my (then) wife.

​My pattern seems to reflect what many straight spouses have shared here: from virtual cyber sex to real-life hookups. For me it started with occasional porn use, then heavy porn use, and finally hookups. With regards to the signs, I always encourage women in your situation to trust their intuition. I'd also encourage you to put aside what he's saying because if he's like me, if his mouth is moving, he's lying/manipulating. But here are the signs that I was a gay man in denial hooking up:

​1. A sudden interest in physical fitness. I got fit because I knew I needed a muscular body to hook up with men.
​2. Constantly online or on screens, but in a very private and shady way. Meaning the computer, tablet, or phone are always facing away from the straight spouse. For example, you walk into a room, he jerks, and clicks to hide what he's watching.
​3. An increase in business trips.
​4. Zero interest in sex with my wife. 
​5. Very uncomfortable with public displays of affection. After I started having sex with men, it made my skin crawl to be held by my (then) wife.
​6. I suddenly started watching very fleshy TV shows with lots of muscular guys, clearly aimed at gay men.
​7. I started wearing very colourful and revealing underwear.
​8. My wardrobe changed from bland, shapeless clothes to very fitted and colourful clothes.

​I want to stress that the above relate to my personal experience so this isn't an exhaustive list. I hope that answered your questions. If not, feel free to write again.

Last edited by Séan (Fri Nov 11 10:37 am)

     Thread Starter
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum