Sean,

I'm the straight spouse.  This is a public forum and everyone is welcome to post here gay or straight, as long as the posts are in the spirit of support and don't personally attack anyone.  If a poster wants advice from say a straight woman, they should preface their original post with that and we should respect it.  

Not every person that comes here is at the same stage of discovery and the advice you guys give has value to a variety of situations and I've appreciated a lot of the male advice here.  Maybe on a new post you can 'read the room', by which I mean if the person posting doesn't seem like they would value your opinion ie, they're here because their husband gave them an STD and they're pissed you might find them a little hostile to your advice so just let the straight woman here have at it.  

I come here because although the MOM sites are great I am not as far along in my discovery so I find it hard to use their advice sometimes since we don't discuss his SSA and many people there are more open with their spouse.  But I wasn't feeling particularly welcome here on SSN until I spoke up and said I wasn't looking for people to criticize me, I am just trying to figure out how to handle this crazy situation.

Vicky

lostdad wrote:

I think my wife is missing the oxytocin hormone.

Speaking from my own personal experience, men also get a rush of hormones from sex. Exhilaration, success, love, acceptance... the desire to do it again another day (or in an hour)... but related to the emotional bond with the female their is something else.

I guess the best word I could use sounds bad.. but it's "ownership". But I cringe at the sound of that word because it displays something negative. I don't see it that way though. It's like... "this is my mate. I will love her and protect her. I'm responsible for her. She will provide nurture and care for me and our children."

But wouldn't this fit just like a puzzle piece with the hormone impacts that women get from sex?

Maybe it's just me.. probably makes me sound like a jerk. Feminists will hate me.

Maybe this is why her affair hurt me so much. It's like she gave herself to someone else.. but she belonged to me. She was mine.. body and heart. And loving her and providing for her was so fulfilling for me. That was my greatest pride.

Maybe this is why the biblical verses about "two people becoming one" mean so much to me. It implies an ownership of each other.

This biblical verse also means alot to me as well, enough that I placed this verse on my parent's double monument.

@ Sean, Cameron, Jeff, and the other gay men/women here. I think it is vital what you can bring to the table for these discussions as long as you realize this forum is for the str8 spouse and their needs. What I liked hearing... this needs to be a topic within the LGBTQ itself, since you don't see much on this from those other types of discussion boards, comments on articles, etc, etc. Persons like Sean, Jeff, and Cameron can take some of these discussions from here and begin a dialogue within their LGBTQ communities. I think it is past-time for the LGBTQ to point out the issues that many str8 spouses face such as the lifelong harm that has been done and is still being done. My opinion is that the LGBTQ needs to take a more active role on what the issues are that str8 spouses find themselves dealing with and perhaps men like Sean, Jeff, and Cameron can use this knowledge to help on the gay spouse side as they have mentioned. That it is not alright for married men/women to live on the dl, lying to themselves, their wives/husbands and just as importantly to their children. I agree, I see more information on how to live on the dl being discussed instead of how to prevent it. So I agree with Sean, Cameron, Jeff and others coming here this needs to happen, so maybe within another generation we can have a society were men/women can openly live their lives.  However, I firmly believe we'll always have men/women who find it a thrill/fetish to be married to a straight person while living on the dl for whatever reason. I think some get off on this. I just think they're people who will always do this regardless of what society as a whole says.   

I think it's a good idea for the ask a gay man/woman ?, perhaps one of you just needs to start the thread itself instead of a full forum, perhaps on the general discussion forum? So which one of you is going to do it? Personally, I see Sean doing it.  Hugs to Sean! Now watch Cameron or Jeff beat him to the punch!  I'm giggling behind my hand here.

I also think those who are gay need to point out within your own community the harm that is being done in these relationships built on lies. I also think this plays a part on homophobic behavior because people know this is happening to people that they know as Jeff said.  Not only to former spouses but other family members and personal friends. It does shed an unfavorable light on the LGBTQ community. I've seen very few point this out lurking on their boards and what they are discussing and what I'm seeing is how to live on the dl because they don't want to give up their cake and eat it too. Some do speak out, but from what I've seen the main community does not. I feel gay men/women who are older need to be advisors to those coming out of the closet, so these individuals can help and perhaps lessen the harm done.  Advise them not to be brats to their spouses, their children, their responsibilities. Yeah they can party like an adolescent, yet they still have obligations and this doesn't excuse any of them just because they came out of their closet.  Many still have children to raise and support, just because they've finally come to terms with who they are is no excuse to be a brat while ending a marriage and coming to terms with child rearing. This won't change until the LGBTQ starts shouting this is wrong and they also need to stop excusing this behavior during the adolescent phrase as they call it, and I feel it really has to come from them, not str8 spouses, please take note this is my personal opinion.  Especially if the gay spouse lied and knew they lied when marrying and having children. It's not your str8 spouses fault you are gay or you had children with them so stop blaming them.   

@ Sean. As for forgiveness, well we can't make people forgive us.  All we can do is pray that one day they will and if your wife can't be friends with you, then you'll just need to understand that she can't for alot of reasons for her own self preservation. If she does forgive you it may be many years into the future until she does, so just prepare for the long haul and give her time. Most likely it won't happened until after your children are grown. It's taken me over 30 years. All we can do is move forward and if anyone wants to hear our/your stories perhaps just the sharing can offer insight for those in need in the future. One thing I will tell you or any other gay man leaving his wife and children don't put the financial/physical/emotional and mental burden of your children all on her shoulders entirely, and make sure your gay partner (if you have one) understands your children have to come first in whatever their needs maybe. Children do need their fathers and don't let anyone tell you different regardless if you are a gay/straight man. I don't mean to say you're one of these men Sean, I'm not, I'm speaking in general terms. What I am saying to you or any other gay man whose left his wife and kids in a physical living arrangement sense is don't abandon them entirely. Years later this will help in the area of forgiveness and it won't be easy.  Never will it be easy for all involved. What I find worrisome is how many gay spouses allow their new partners be manipulative toward the str8 spouse where child support is concerned and I don't mean just financial. I've seen this happen alot because the new partner wants all of your time and cash for their needs. A balancing act to be sure.   

I've forgiven my ex who is a closet bisexual to a point. I'll never be able to forgive him fully because I was the one whose life was destroyed, not his, mine was. I was the one left in poverty raising our son on my own, while he lived the good life living off of women while he lived his hidden bi lifestyle sleeping with men on the side. Do I forgive him for being bi and living a lie? Yes I do because of the generation we were born into. He didn't have a choice because of our generation, I get it. I also know he will never ever come out regarding his lifestyle because of his family. I also don't look unfavorably to my childhood friend who is gay nor my cousin who moved far from home to hide his lifestyle. I loved them as people who mattered to me and how they enriched my life, and I still have love for my husband to this day. I've never remarried or been in a relation in all of these years. I am ready to move forward in this arena, my obligations to everyone else is done and now it's just me and my needs. Will I find someone? Well that is up to God or fate and that is where I'll leave it. If it's meant to be then it will happen and if not, I'm fine being single. I have a freedom being single now that I never appreciated in my youth. 

Where my ex is concerned (and perhaps this might help you understand on forgiveness) what I'll never forgive is my husband's disregard for his lack of support especially to his son because of his bi lovers and his partying with them came first. Yet as his wife I'd better be home where I was supposed to be taking care of his home and his son and being his faithful wife. These were his words to me yet I was to overlook his own behavior in cheating with men and women, the drugs, and the alcohol, just because he was the main breadwinner at the time. After our divorce he begrudged me every last penny the court made him pay because it took away from him taking his lovers on dates, the financial aspect of it I guess to party. In my story, I never asked for alimony when it was the accepted norm back in those days because I'd always worked. I only wanted child support on our son's behalf. I knew he would refuse to pay alimony because I packed up and left when I couldn't take it anymore. He has never forgiven me for leaving him even after 30 years of divorce even though he was sleeping with men on the side, openly lived with a gay man. He came back into our lives a few years ago and imagine my shock on finding him at my front door wanting to know where our son was who was a grown man by this time. Imagine my shock! My husband couldn't be bothered to come to his own son's high school graduation he was too busy partying and getting laid...he had a weekend getaway with his male friends and he wouldn't change his plans for his own son. Alrighty then, it's my fault on our son's graduation date??!!  Because of his bi lovers, their parties and their road trips for self enjoyment came at our son's expense and the responsibility was added to my own father's shoulders. This is why I'll never fully forgive.

I gave him everything he asked for in regards to visitation, whatever he wanted he got. Everything. Then he had the nerve to stop showing up due to his lifestyle of unprotected sex with men & women, his drugs and alcohol and yet it's all my fault??!!!

I wanted my husband to have time with his son thus I bent on the visitation. His bisexual lovers and their friends came first. That wasn't my choice it was his choice. His drug use, his alcohol use, were his choices, not mine. As I said, I'll never forgive this on my son's behalf. Never. What he did to me, yes, took me years but I did forgive and moved on. Our son to this day has no idea his father is a bisexual but I think he suspects. I think his family has finally figured it out without any input from me, and I thank God I'm not responsible for their new knowledge and why he could never stay married. They're two more wives after me. 

My personal opinion on the forgiveness thing moving forward for all former gay spouses, don't a abandoned your kids just because you've come out of the closet, be the father and mother that your children still need and depend on, and I think this will help the str8 spouse move forward toward forgiveness down the road. I think once the str8 spouse has the reassurance the gay spouses isn't going to abandon their kids will go along way toward the forgiveness thing. I also think it might reassure the str8 spouse that your family with them did matter and they do as the mother/father of your children. I don't think I would have struggled like I did if my ex had done this. I think it would have been easier for me to forgive sooner than I did if he had been a good father and he wasn't because of his own baggage. Also on his behalf he is also a Vietnam Veteran having issues dealing with the war also, and this type of talk toward being openly gay/bi was totally forbidden for both of us as children.  I also know his own mother would have entirely washed her hands of him if it came out he slept with men. Every time his mom turned around she had to bail him out of trouble over his drug and alcohol abuse let alone the men she never knew about. I know for a fact, he loved his mother above all women in his life. He totally respected his mother. I think the reason he hooked up with me was because there was talk in his small hometown of his association of being around gay men/bi men. I was the first cover to hide these facts from his mother and all the rest of his wives. Yeah it took me years to forgive even though at times I still resent it. Sorry I hijacked this thread with part of my own personal story.  I just hope my 2 cent and my own life experience will help someone else down the road.  It's not much but all I have to give.               

  
 

Great post CajunBelle. You've highlighted something I didn't consider before: namely that there is growing support for the LGBTQ community and yet rightful condemnation of the gay in denial narcissist. I also agree that being out doesn't give us all a free pass. We've often destroyed lives in the process which our community cannot forget. Perhaps the LGBTQ community overlooks straight spouses because the focus is almost completely on an individual accepting his/her true sexuality...or gender. It's not LGBTQ-N with the "n" being for "narcissism" although I do agree that men and women in my position should encourage others to live honestly, treat their straight spouses kindly, and (if necessary) separate/divorce with dignity. But we'll never see a RECOVERING *SSHOLES PRIDE PARADE nor a parade for SPOUSES WHO HAVE SURVIVED BEING MARRIED TO GAY NARCS. I guess the LGBTQ community doesn't address the problems like straight spouses and narcissism because they want to focus on glittery love and rainbows. I guess they believe that straight spouses are a problem from another time...something to be forgotten like WWII Japanese interment.  

In my mind, gay doesn't necessarily equal narcissist although gay in denial and narcissism appear to go hand in hand unfortunately. Countless stories here confirm it. I firmly believe denial and self hatred are the true culprits. Near the end of my own troubled marriage, I was a full-blown narcissist if not a borderline sociopath. And I used all of the terrible narc tools to try and hide my sexuality from myself, my wife, and my family. I'm not proud of this but I now understand why I acted like I did. And yes it was a f*cked up choice unfortunately and I could have acted differently. Given what I've learned through therapy, extensive reading, and reading your stories on this forum, I now believe that denial and self-hatred are to narcissism what booze is to alcoholism.   

​I don't believe this is a gay thing. Give someone enough booze over enough time and they'll have a bulbous nose, pocked skin, and rheumy eyes. Take a loving, innocent child and beat him enough and he'll eventually start beating others.  Feed a young gay kid enough Bible verses and homophobia, and you'll eventually create a future gay spouse. So what's my point? Yes my behaviour was terrible and yes I should have acted differently. That goes without saying. Unfortunately, I didn't know how else to act. Since the age of five I've lied, manipulated, and fled all conflict to hide the fact that I liked boys. At the same time, I obsessively craved the attention & approval of others. These were my languages and over time I became dangerously fluent in them. This was the only way I knew how to act. It was the only way I knew how to live. It was only near the end of my marriage, depressed and suicidal that I FINALLY understood my way of living was completely wrong and had consequences. Coming out of that dark closet finally exposed EVERYTHING wrong about me and the way I'd acted. And it was f*cking terrifying. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm a narcissist in recovery. I no longer live in denial of my sexuality, I've owned the terrible things I've done, and I've broken both hearts and lives along the way unfortunately. There were indeed consequences. I agree that the LGBTQ movement has an almost myopic obsession with "coming out" or "self acceptance" perhaps to a point that we forget those like all of you we've so unnecessarily harmed in the process. On behalf of every gay spouse, I want to write: WE'RE SORRY. You all deserved so much better than this. I've really learned something so thank you.    

Last edited by Séan (November 8, 2016 3:45 am)

Well Cajun Belle, I fully understand his choices were his choices. I've always understood this and I made my own choices when I left and filed for divorce; because, I wasn't going to allow my son to be raised in that environment. When I left I had not one dollar to my name. I didn't dare take any money out of our checking account. My parents came and got me and their grandson and took us home. I didn't know it at the time but my dad had his gun under his seat when we drove home. My mom never told me that until after my dad passed away.  

When people are doing hardcore drugs like my husband did when he came home from nam and many of them returned with drug addiction - which I didn't know anything about until after we were married. You can't talk to a person who uses hard core drugs such as heroine, then throw alcohol into the mix, they do some crazy stuff. Heck my former husband has done LSD, cocaine, you name it he has done it. It amazes me he is still alive or never contracted AIDS, hepatitis or any STD with his drug use and lifestyle. At least he didn't when he was with me. People like that do take a walk on the wild side of life. Please keep in mind many soldiers returning from Nam it's not like it is today. Our soldiers today can get help if they need it, if they are willing to ask for it. Back then there wasn't anything available nor was PTSD even recognized back then. They had no professional support of any kind. One day they were fighting in the bush and two days later they were back in the world. I knew he was self medicating with the drugs and alcohol over nam. I didn't know about the other crap. I don't know when the drug addiction stopped if sleeping with men stopped or continues, I have no idea. I'd say he was self medicating with the sex addiction as well. One of his best friends he slept with is now dead from a drug overdose and he was a successful attorney married with six kids. In our home in our bedroom. Both of them were higher than kites and they didn't even know I'd walked in on them. I turned and walked right back out. I never said a word about it, I didn't dare because I knew he was wigged out on drugs when they were doing the ten toes boogie! I couldn't react to it because T's wife was coming in my front door downstairs with their six kids, and my son when I walked in on them. I was fixing dinner for all of us and went upstairs to tell the men T's wife and kids were coming up the road and dinner was almost done. Right then and there I knew what D told me was true and I had to face it. 

I don't believe he is with men today by the way our son talks and frankly I don't care. I honestly don't know. I do know my former husband's health has deteriorated to the point of life or death due to his heart and maybe this is why he came back two years ago to find our son. When I opened my front door I had no idea who he was until he spoke to me, I didn't even recognize him, his voice that deep voice of his washed over me and I knew it was him. I was stunned and I couldn't respond to him for several seconds. It's been exactly one year ago today that I've seen him. Apparently, I'm having a dark night of the soul over him for some reason today and I don't know why? I thought I'd put all of this behind me.

That was the hardest thing I've ever done was call my son and tell him his dad was at my door. If I keep my mind, I don't think I'll ever forget my son's deep inhale of breath over the phone. The first thing out of my son's mouth was mom did he hurt you? That nearly killed me. I could hear the worry in my son's voice, we divorced when our son was seven. My daughter-in-law later told me my son started shaking during that phone call, because he was mad this dad might have hurt me. To be honest I almost didn't call my son and let him know. I agonized making that phone call and I didn't make it until two days after the fact. I paced the floor for two days straight and was so shook up I couldn't even go to my college classes. When it finally snapped in my head, this isn't my call to make, my son is a full grown man now and it's his decision to make not mine any longer,regarding his father. I thought E get a grip! I knew if I didn't tell our son and our son finds out some other way his dad was trying to find him, I didn't want to be made out the liar. So I kept my word to my ex and called our son.  I honestly didn't want him back in my life nor our son's. Yet, I took the high road like my daddy taught me.

I finally did something about it all those years ago. I stopped taking it and packed up and moved out one day when he was at work. I never told him I was leaving. I just did it. I thank God and my parents I was 200 miles away when he got home because he was mad, mad.  Likely kill me if he got his hands on me mad.  I heard through the grapevine he tore our home up when he got home. Everything inside. I guess our neighbor had to call his brother and brothers-in-law to handle him when I left. I heard he lost it and was totally wild during over separation and divorce. I also got threaten I'd better not have another man around his son too or even date anyone. Yeah I've lived through some hellish times.  

What always got to me is that he demanded that I be his faithful wife, I better never cheat on him. He would get violently jealous if another man even talked to me, flirted with me, and yes he was violent and I was at times an abused wife. I just wish I'd learn how to duct faster. It got to the place I wasn't allowed to go to a bar with him, especially after our son was born. Nope, my place was at home with our son.

My former husband is a big guy and a former marine. He was 6'3 or 6'4 and was around 230 lbs when we were married. With a broad chest and shoulders, and arms, ripped muscles all over, except for his legs. He has never lost that physical physique to this day. My husband looked like Tom Selleck. He was very good looking, handsome and an alpha male all the way. He knew he was good looking too, we couldn't go out unless women were falling all over him. Fact is my former husband knows how to fight and defend himself, he likes nothing better than a good bar fight. He would have never survived Vietnam if he didn't. I'm only 5'3 and back then 120 pounds. I've always had a curvy figure. Many have told me my eyes are my best feature and my skin. My daughter-in-law says I don't show my age. I don't dye my hair because I don't have enough gray to color it. I really haven't changed that much expect gain twenty pounds. My ex couldn't believe it and told our son I really hadn't changed very much. 

I was swept off my feet by him and we dated for four years before we ever got married. I meet him after he came home from Vietnam. I was a virgin when we married. He really got off on that too. I've only ever been with my husband. The sex was great, curl your toes great yet we never experimented to much. Yeah he shut that right down when I made the suggestions. I was his wife and that was not going to happen, he got mad I even suggested, and the only reason I did was because I couldn't take birth control pills due to blood clot issues. I had a blood clot go to my lung during childbirth and I nearly stroked out during birth. I think ya'll know what I'm trying to say between the lines here. Yes, I loved my husband with all of my heart and he knew it. He was the end all be all for me as he used to say. I know, the irony of being single all of these years isn't lost on me.

I also never looked at him or considered him being a narcissistic person, but I see now that he was by you pointing this out to me. How did I not know this or I never realized this until now? I think we can see it more in other individuals and their circumstance vs. our own. I just now realized how mad I still am about all of it.

I've never told anyone until my post you commented on about my husband sleeping with men.  I've never told another living soul even my sister who knew all of my secrets or my best friends. Nobody in my family ever knew or if they did we never discussed it. He used to get drunk and tell me things, I knew he wouldn't have ever told me if he wasn't drunk or high. I used to think it was a bunch of bull and it was the liquor talking.

Here is irony for you.  I'm the one who raised our son on my own, no help from him except his child support. I could never get my child support increased because his brother-in-law was the director for child support services in the county our divorce was granted. My child support never changed one iota, not even with my son's medical bills for his allergies and his asthma, over eleven years. This is the only time I asked for an increase because I wasn't making it. I was robbing peter to pay paul to keep a roof over our heads. My dad had just retired and I didn't want to ask him and my mom for the money. Well I toughed it out as best as I could, took me years to rebuild my credit.

My ex might show up and he might not for his visitation. Well it's been 18 years since we've seen him. We used to have a running joke, because every time my girl friends or my family would talk about him he'd show up.  No joke, this would really happen. The last time we'd heard from him was a week before our son's graduation. I was under the impression he was coming which I didn't have a problem with, that must have been one heck of road trip he took with his buddies that weekend. We've not heard one word from him from that day to the day he showed up at my front door two years ago.  

I sat my son down and told him to take the high road and forgive his dad and be the better man like me and his grandpa taught him to be. Well he did, and my ex now calls our son several times a week now. They now have a relationship and a fairly decent one. Our son goes down and visits his dad. He even told our son, I did a fine job raising him on my own. When he was here last year, he wanted to come over and thank me for keeping my word.  He also asked my son if I was seeing anyone.  He also told our son, he should never had done the things he did during our marriage and he now regrets it.  After 30 years I'm now hearing about this! For real!!!!

Then the old fart had the nerve to ask me out on a date, wanted to know what I like to do for fun when I went out now. I couldn't believe my ears. In front of our son and his wife. My son and his wife their eyes flew over to mine to see my reaction. I calmly crossed my arms over my chest, and looked him in the eye and sweetly said...I don't think the things you are interested in are the same things I'm interested in and I don't think it would be a good match and I calmly walked away and went outside on my son's patio for a smoke. I remember sitting there thinking I should have grabbed my daughter-in-law's iron skillet on her stove and whopped him up side the head. I guess our son told my ex he better not ask me. I thought I handled the situation very well all things considered. It was one of the worst dinners I've ever sat through with him sitting next to me after being divorced for thirty years.  

What is so sad, is that my story isn't unique to anyone else's.  All of our stories are sad, heartbreaking and sometimes with a dash of bittersweetness. 

 

       

CajunBelle wrote:

Emerald.

When I read your shares, I feel afterward like I've been run over by a bulldozer... the bulldozer that tried to flatten you, and couldn't.
In fact.... you broke the bulldozer. It's upside down in the field, wheels spinning slowly, a curlicue of smoke rising from it.
What are you MADE of, woman?? My hat is off to you.

My God, what you have been carrying.... for so long..... what you have been carrying.

I hope finding this forum has helped in some way... but it sounds like you got through it all on your own and you're only finding this forum long after the fact.

How you got through that.... I can't wrap my mind around it Emerald.

I'm glad you shared here. I hope you continue to.

I would say I wish you healing but frankly, you sound way beyond that. You could teach a graduate level course on resilience...

words fail me Emerald.

xoxox

Thank you Cajun for your kind words and once again, I'm so sorry for hijacking this thread and for some reason it all just came tumbling out. I've held all of this inside for 30+ years.  I guess in part because I've never really talked about it. You're right, I never had anyone to talk too about this.  I could have only gone to my church for counseling and I never did being to ashamed. I stopped going to church over being divorced. I think with the invention of the internet and people communicating in ways never thought of before others of the newer generation now have support systems people didn't have back then...such as this community.

Since my divorce in my quiet times I've always questioned if my former spouse was/is gay/bi.  I'll never have a complete answer and for the most part I just keep putting one foot in front of another and keep moving forward, it's all any of us can do.   

All I can say to everyone here is be true yourself and your beliefs whatever they maybe and know whatever hardships life throws at you you will get through it. You will come out the other side a different person who is stronger, wiser, more giving, emphatic, knowledgeable to some extent that you can share with someone else and help them through their time of need.

Sorry I wasn't able to respond sooner, my pc was down.  Just got it back.