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July 25, 2019 10:47 pm  #11

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

ADSJ:  although I agree somewhat with this idea of not having strong enough boundaries, I also think the boundaries that get crossed for us are sometimes smallish steps and so they are difficult to recognize (like the grooming we have discussed on the site before) and also big giant things that are truly so stunning that we do not know what do do about them.

And when we do realize, and push back, we are told that our boundaries are wrong—our boundaries are mean—and then it is hard to see that as a boundary being challenged too.

A few mos ago, in the middle of Some TGT Stuff, I found a quote I wish I could find again.  Something like how you find yourself standing on a precipice realizing you are having to explain boundaries so basic that you never thought you would have to articulate them.  you did not even know you needed to articulate them.  And then when you finally realize a kind of fundamental boundary has been crossed, you are told your perception of that human boundary is flawed and that by having this fundamental boundary, you are actually attacking someone else’s boundary, 

Like, “we do not lie.” Why should I have to debate what a lie is?  Or why should I have to justify that it hurts to have my loved one criticize me just for loving them?  It is just so mixed up that you do not even know what is going on anymore.


July 26, 2019 12:36 am  #12

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

BB, the hook of the manipulator is the pity party -- what will become of me, what will people think, will I lose my clients? She's an adult. She's required to deal with the consequences of her actions all by herself.

.OMOTF - you are right about the small steps to test if they can go to a bigger boundary breaker with you. It takes time and practice to hone your boundary skills.

My GIDXH seemed to relish these never ending fights and crazy making statements. It was an in for him to keep manipulating me. When I looked at it like that, I stopped taking the bait.

A good book on this subject is "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout, Ph.D. She explains how good people get involved with manipulators and how to extricate yourself.



July 27, 2019 10:23 am  #13

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

Thanks to all for the responses and sharing your experiences.  It makes me feel quite a bit better to know that others have dealt with this mindfuckery.

My wife keeps demanding that I take my part in “ownership” of this situation.  How can I take ownership for her unilateral and secret decision to have an affair?  How can I take ownership for her sexuality?  Yet she’s so demanding about it.  I told her that line of conversation is over forever.  She can go work it out with a therapist instead.

     Thread Starter

July 27, 2019 3:40 pm  #14

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

Blue bear: !!!!!!!

This is exactly what I am dealing with! I am so constantly amazed at similarities. Like on Chumplady, “did they all read the same cheaters handbook?”

My husband wants me to own my part in the marriage problems. He is not sure what his part is. He is sure WE! HAVE! ISSUES! But he will not articulate them to me.

This is another total mind mess. Just absolutely crazy. Shifting the blame onto us, without specifics at all! Because I HAVE looked at all my flaws for decades, the ones he called out—impossible, deep, contradictory, and double standards. And also the ones that he did not call out—it does not take long for the self criticism to kick in.

So now that I am calling him out on his actual behavior, which is real actions and lies and hidden stuff for decades— and now that I am also asking him to just listen to my hurt (because he said he wanted to hear it)— this makes me mean, at least by his definition. Yep, that is my part! My part is not excusing everything.

Oh yes. Also, my part is not being happy inside when he hurts me.  Or at least, not hiding it well enough, not pretending I am happy no matter what.  Because if I am not entirely happy, that is my part of being a bad spouse.  And so he has to find men for sex.

My part is not knowing. My part is that he continued to look at gay hookup sites, and he continued to feel really dissatisfied with me, which proves that I have many flaws. Blue bear: don’t you get it? If you did not “have a big part” in this, then she would not have been attracted to her lesbian lover. Since she IS wanting her lesbian lover, this proves it—this proves you have a giant part in this! It proves you did not fill her needs as a spouse. That was your part. Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggghhhhhhh!

Seriously, thanks for being an example of telling her to cut it out.

Last edited by OnMyOwnTwoFeet (July 27, 2019 5:41 pm)


July 27, 2019 6:02 pm  #15

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

OMOTF:  Holy crap!  Do you have a camera installed in our house?  You have described EXACTLY what I am going through.  I am guilty of (a) spending too much time with the kids, (b) not throwing enough parties at the house, and (c) spending too much money on family vacations with our three children under the age of 12.  This is what drove her to infidelity and being a lesbian, dammit!  It was my fault!  I need to own this!  I did not fill her needs (even though we never had a serious conversation about this or brought in a marriage counselor to help us figure that out!).

Thanks for sharing your perspective!  I feel less insane.  

Last edited by Blue Bear (July 27, 2019 6:04 pm)

     Thread Starter

July 28, 2019 1:44 pm  #16

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

what are we guilty of?  we are guilty of trapping the butterfly.  

He knew I would have walked at any time if he'd told me he was gay and I had even asked him several times.  I was entirely not to blame for the situation but somehow at that basic emotional soul level there are no excuses are there.

He was guilty of trapping the butterfly deliberately - that's awful, and to top it off - blaming me for it.  these fakers come with inbuilt shit fans, don't they.



July 28, 2019 2:54 pm  #17

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

If my name is  Foaming At The Mouth Homophobic Who Beats Up Gay People With Tire Irons And Pays Them 30% Less Than Their Straight Colleagues While Denying Them Deserved Promotions and Cash Awards, then I'm to blame.

If not, no. Not me.  (In a sarcastic mood here. In which universe can this ever be true? The truth is they want a beard to not suffer from prejudice and taunts, but they want to cheat with others. They are looking out for #1.)


July 28, 2019 5:50 pm  #18

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

Not only did I ask my ex if he was gay several times (how horrible could I be to ask him such a question of course he wasn't), I also left him after we'd been together for a few years and I was living in my brother's flat and starting a new life and he came after me and told me he loved me and please to come back and I did.

He is the one who perpetrated a deception, and he doesn't even have the excuse of avoiding prejudice, he lived in a gay friendly place.

after a few decades together his resentment towards me was palpable but right from the start it was there.   that feeling is the true one not the froth and bubble of faked emotions.  Just like it was the lack of affection coming from him when we were alone that was real, not the smiling arm around me when we were in company.

What I am saying is the resentment was the trapped butterfly in him - not fair seeing as he was the cause of it and stymied all my efforts to free him - but that is what caused his resentment of me.  It is not fair, very much agreed.

Last edited by lily (July 28, 2019 5:56 pm)


July 29, 2019 12:15 pm  #19

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

Lily: If it's any consolation, I asked my STBXW if she were having an affair with her "friend" twice and a few months apart.  She denied it vehemently.

Duped's and OMOTF's earlier responses are spot on.  The only piece of advice I would give to anyone dealing with this situation is this -- don't try to engage with this kind of mindfuckery.  You will lose, you will never get a clear answer or the answer you want, and you will be exhausted by performing mental gymnastics at the end of it. 

This is the way I felt when I was trying to engage my wife on her sexuality.  I love stupid movies, and one of them is Billy Madison.  Billy attempts to prove his smarts during a quiz, and gives a stupid answer.  The school principal says this to him:  "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.  At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.  Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.  I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."  That is what I wanted to say in response to her, but I think it would have inflamed the situation even more..

Last edited by Blue Bear (July 29, 2019 3:41 pm)

     Thread Starter

July 29, 2019 8:51 pm  #20

Re: Could we make this all the more confusing?

oh goodness what a great quote - right down to everyone is now dumber for having listened to it, and I liked the ending - it made me laugh.  It's true, it is that bad.

and it's worse - it eventually dawned on me that my ex was not confused like me, for him the purpose of the conversation was to get what he wanted from me, not by saying it, but going about it in an underhanded way.

yeah, sharing our stories, it is a consolation.

thanks, Blue Bear

all the best, Lily



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