Deleted

Last edited by Goonnowgo (March 19, 2019 1:24 am)

It doesn't shock me that a pastor would not disclose this secret.  Especially 30 years ago.  

Much of our society still views same-sex attraction as a choice.  Many view it as a sinful desire.  The Christian church believes that a person can overcome sin and sinful desires and chose to follow life the way outlined in the Bible.  

I think we (society)  romanticize marriage and think that both partners will give up certain parts of the their past and change parts of themselves and become "better people" so that they can enter into the covenant of marriage.  

Perhaps times are changing and more people understand and accept that a same-sex attraction is not a choice.  I think and hope that what happened to you will be less common in the future.

The question now is how can you find a place of peace.   I think one thing would be to contemplate forgiveness toward that pastor.  Given what I shared above I would guess that he really thought your ex could change so he didn't feel it was an absolute death sentence for your marriage.  If you can accept that he made a mistake and forgive the human being who did that, then perhaps you can find peace.  


As for myself..  we were married in the church, but my ex didn't disclose her sexuality to anyone so there was no fault to be held.  If she had told a pastor and he had married us without informing me, then I think I'd have a similar about of anger to what you have. 

 

I hope that I am using this reply post correctly.  I have pushed one button an dhoping ot reply to all three people who replied to me.

What is most helpful here is to learn that someone else tried to change how the church operates by asking her bishop to include a discussion of hidden homosexual desires in his/her premarital counselling.  I too am contemplating whether or not trying to quietly discuss this sort of thing with individual pastors as I see them woudl be helpful for my healing process.  (i.e. helping to make the chruch a safer place for me and others would help me feel safer there). I am somehwat limited in my ability to makea big splash in doing so because I also suffer from unrelated mental health issues (premenstrual and menopause related).  However, I believe I could quietly have a chat here and there.

My schizophrenic sister died by her own hand a little over a year ago and my elderly but strong and articulate Dad has already been to her psychiatrist who has already said she will implement different discharge planning.  As well he has been to his city councillor (like an alderman) to advocate for systemic changes which the councillor has committed to at least tyr working on.  All of this has been an effective part of his healing journey and I am quite proud that my Dad did this to protect others in spit eof his own grief an dphysical frailty.  Yeah, Dad!

I have some additional questions for others in this forum about a coupel of things, though. 

1) What would be most helpful for  a Christian premarital counsellor to do?  a) dig around and try to find hidden homosexual desires (or hidden anything, for that matter), or b) simply mention that affections for the same sex are not ordinarily quelled by a heterosexual marriage and also outline whatever well researched impacts there are for the straight spouse and potential children?

My sense is that the b) option would be more respectful and work better

2) As a preamble, my current denomination is big into social justice issues and seems to have a committee for everything, including a race relations committee to overcome problems with wasp privilege and other committees and groups to address how Christians oppressed native populations in the past (even though this denomination was not yet established in North America at the time).  I bleive they may have even made a formal apology to native populations for Christian residential school abuses etc. even thought they never ran one!   In other words, their sense of justice is so great that they apologize to populations of people who have been abused by other Christians, on behalf of all of the other Christians. 

So, since this sort of thing tends to happen, I'm wondering if, over time, an apology by the church for deceptive practices against straight spouses might occur and if I might have soem small part to play in bringign that about.  The thing is this....I don't know if this or was a systemic problem or not.  So, I gues oen of the things I am doing on this forum is a little fact finding.  Was I alone, or are there others, and what is the extent of the problem?

I sense that receving an apology of some sort would help my healing journey, even though I also know, as a Christian, that my forgiveness cannever be conditional on receiving one.  I did write a letter to my previosu pastor, outlining exactly how he coudl have prevented all of this, but I never received an apology.  As well, my ex-husband simply blames the church and does not take personal responsibility, as if he, as an adult, somehow didn't have any agency.  So, people somehow finger point everywhere else and I never seem to receive an apology.  To me, this seems like evidence of a systemic problem.  (i.e. if everyone else is doing this heinous thing because they think it is right and proper, then it was right fo rme to also do at th etim and therefore I don't have to be responsible!)

In my mind, a systemic problem needs a systemic response (i.e. Christians getting together and making a group apology), but, I repeat, I don't have concrete evidence that this type of deception is or was a systemic occurence.  Anyone else out there?

To the other Christians out there, here are some of the things that have helped my on my journey...

1) Charles Price, a respected pastor of People's Church in Toronto, Ontario, in one of his weekly televised sermons, actually said in plain language that homosexual persons should not marry straights in order to "fix" themselves.  For me it was as if the heavens opened and all the angels sang "hallelujah!!)

2) One good, elderly, quite crusty and quite spiritual and quite Biblically-knowledgable Christian friend acknowledged to me that spiritual abuse had happened and she encouraged me to confront my former pastor in writing.  It took some years for me to find this friend within the church and she has been amazing.

3) One therapist opened up the scriptures to me and made me realize that not only was vengeance in God's balliwcik, not mine, but also that, at death, my former pastor will have to look Jesus in the face and give an accounting for his actions.  Although I already knew that I was not to seek vengeance against my former pastor (i.e. punish him!) I soemhow di dnot realize at all, even after all these years of Christian living, that whether or not there is an accounting in this earthly life, there will be an accounting in the afterlife.  Somehow thi sis comforting. 

4) In my denomination.in sublte ways, individual congregatiosn are starting to acknolwedge that the knowledge and understanding of pastors abotu all kinds of complex psyhcosocial situations is limited, and that others may be better able to help. ( I.e. acknolwedging that having an intimate understaing of scripture doesn't necessarily equip them to deal with every sitation that comes along).  So, now, a couple of congegations I have belonged to have set up funds that members can directly access in order to attend outside counselling from someone with a Master's of Divinity in counsellign of some sort, rather than simple Bibl e training. Surely this type fo initiatve, will, over time,  prevent negligence tha tis inspired by a lack of knowledge.

To the person whose therapist hid the truth about the spouse's sexual oreintation...

1) At my angriest, I did contemplate suing my former pastor for damages.  What I foudn in my internet search is that this is a very difficult thing to do.  Th eresponsibilities of clergy in counsellign situations are not well defined, so it is difficult to sue them fo rnegligence, for example.  However, the situation with pschotherapists who belong to formal colleges of care (i.e. schools of social work, or american association of marriag ean dfamily therapists, for example) is different.  They are held to strict rules and guidleiens and can be reprimanded and also lose their licenses.

2) In my province (or country, I am not sure!) it is illegal for persons with HIV to hide their status from sexual partners, and, indeed, soem have gone to jail fro this and even been charged with manslaughter after ensuing deahts, etc.  So, certainly, if your former therapist had known that your former spouse was HIV positive, then, in my jurisdiction, it seems to logically follwo that a therapist could at least be reprimanded by his/her college for putting a straight spouse in a life-threatenign situation by not breaching confidentialtiy and disclosing to you the hiv status.

However, th eresponsibilites of a therapist when there is only potential for hiv is unclear to me.  Certainly it seems ot me that your therapist should have confronted your ex and demanded that he reveal his orientaiton to you or cease doing the marriage counselling, thereby retaining her confidentiality responsibility while also prtecting you.  Similarly, my former pastro should have demanded that my ex revel his inclincations to me or not perfrom the marriag eceremony.  It is really a simple way to be responsible to both parties. 

If you are really, really angry right now, and feel like being a screaming banshee, then you are unlikely to get very far, at least accoring to my current and excellen ttherapist.  When you express anger, others tend ot put walls up.  However, if you are able to express the hurt an dpain you have suffered, then there is some chance of remediation.

Do you have seomone who can help you write a letter to your former therapis tin order to eleicit an apology?  .

Secondly, is there a practice college that you can complain to about this former therapist?  This college can sanction the therpaist and sned him/her for retraining and thereby protect future clients.  Again, I don't knwo whether or not something woudl be done if a case coudl be made that she was simply protecting client confidentiality.  Conundrum in my mind.

Finally, I really don't know much about the law in thi ssituation.  I suppose there are lawyers who might take on this case an dbe unethical (like your former therapist  may have done!) and taek this to court and siphon yoru funds withotu any real chanc eof financial reward.  If you want to go this route, I'm wondering if you should talk to a few different lawyer sto get their take on it.  Really, I don't kwow much about the law and feel like I am treading on thin ice here.


 

Gertrude, my thinking in contacting the Bishop was not to suggest putting either person in premarital counseling on the spot by delving into his or her sexual urges or history but for the priest to impart the information that 1) marriage does not cure same sex desires if they exist and 2) marriages entered into without the partners discussing these desires with each other beforehand are likely to be unhappy. 

When a relative died I asked that memorial donations be sent to a church in the community which described itself as a "welcoming congregation." I also sent a note to the pastor saying that I hoped that they would be as accepting of gays and lesbians growing up in their midst as those coming through the door as adults because if my ex not been raised in a church where homosexuality was something that had to be denied he would not be my ex. The pastor contacted me and asked to share my note (minus my name) with others because he thought it was important.

Clergy do have the right to refuse to marry a couple if s/he sees evidence that one or both are not ready to enter into Christian matrimony. This is not against the law because it is a religious decision. When a clerk refuses to issue a marriage license to those who have a right to marry under the civil law or a judge or other person authorized by civil law refuses to perform the ceremony.that is entirely different.

In law there is the so-called "Statute of Limitations" which says that legal action must be taken within certain periods of time or it can't be. Whether there ever was a basis for a lawsuit I suspect that too much time has passed to do anything now.

Dear Abby,

I ceased considering lawsuits many year ago, but yoru point about statutes of limitations is a good one.  Really, what is possible and probable in these situations is probably quite varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and anyone who might consider seeking financial reparations from an involved professional really needs to seek competent legal advice.

Kel..
About th eneed to disclose any number of things to potential spouses....
- ethically, I know this is difficult o rpossibly next to impossible for a trained and licensed therapist to do if the potnetially offending party is th eonly person in therapy and the potentially unaware impending spouse exists outside of that therapy relationship.  There are confidentiality duties of care that may vary a little but, at least in the social service agency I used to work for, required absolute confidentiality unless there was impending murder, suicide, etc that would then be reported to the authorities rather than family members or potential family members
- however, I still feel really strongly that therapists have a strogn ethical obligation to be creative, very creative, and find ways to both encourage and ensure honest communication abotu any of the sorts of issues you mention, whether they are porn, former abuse, etc.  The person may well have resolved these things and no longer do them, however, there is an oissue of integrity at stake here...the potential spouse has a right to know abotu any of these things so that he/she can decide if he/she is willing to put himslef/herself at risk of the other party relapsing.  This isn't an issue of whether or not the offender is forgiven by God, etc.  ....of course he/she is.  This is about integrity, honesty, and those Christian virtues of not being deceptive.   Even in situations wherein the one spouse feels he/she may have changed sexual orientation from gay to straight (and there are plenty of people in this position) the potential partner needs to be informed, simply because there are plenty of really sincere Christians, even in leadership in the ex-gay community, who have realized after decades that they never changed orientation, they have on;y changed behaviour, and then upon this realization, at least in some situations, the marriage blows up. 
- I feel so strongly about this business of opening up about anything that might impair a marriage, and in personal relationships with friends have warned them that if they don't clean up their act (i.e. addictive porn behaviour) I will tell the impending spouse if they don't.  Of course, I am not bound by confidentiality rules when I am only a friend/relative
- After all, in the Christian world marriage is a covenant before God, and each party deserves to make such a high and sacrosanct and binding arrangement with eyes wide open and fully informed.  It's really difficult for a Christian person who understands the high position of the marriage agreement to easily dissolve the agreement..it takes all kinds of inner wrestling and prayer, at least for me it did.
- In cases wherein both parties are in counselling together, be it premarital counselling or marriage counselling with a therapist, to me, anyway, there is an even stronger ethical obligation for the counsellor to protect both parties and I don't believe, although I am not really sure, that many professional colleges and churches might see that it is ok for a therapis tto disclose certain things.  If not, then I strongly feel that the counsellor still has an ehtical obligation to, again, get creative and find ways to encourage the one party to disclose to the other.
- Kel, as far as healing taking me so long, perhaps an understanding of my situation of having been a single mother might help....
- in order to mitigate th efamily instability I tried so very hard to keep other situations stable fo rmy kids...this meant going from one part time job to three in order to keep the same roof over their heads, the same Christin school (with tuition), the same neigbourhood, etc.  Eventually this meant changing profession entirely.  All of this, in itself, put great strain on me.  It also squeezed my time very very tight, with all of the extra child care responsibilities added as I was now primary custodian.  I did not have spare money for counselling either (and, in fact, we went slowly backwards financially even with all of my extra effort).  Added to this was my new therapist-identified propensity to intellectualize and compartmentalize and find ways to hide sad and angry feeling deep within myself.  None of these are anybody else's fault.  They are my own overt and even hidden-from-myself choices.  But they sure slowed down the healing process because I simply wasn't attending to it in those days.  Perhaps other single parents have experienced the added responsibilities as only slowing down healing, while at the same time requiring one to at least put on a facade of o.k.ness in front of the kids and alos putting on a facade of being friendly to the ex-spouse all in an effort to spare the kids as much as possible?  Certainly in some ways these things do not help the kids because the effort to squeeze things down only result sin things liek parental depression, etc. 
- Kel, even though my spouse left a long time ago he did not quit inadvertently hurting me for a really long time.   He made many ensuing unwise decisions that blew back at me.  For example, a bad business decision that led to bankruptcy tht almost cost me my assets since the separation agreement was not fully in place.    Such as being quite promiscuous and not using protection and contracting HIV and me needing to deal with my frightened children over this.   Such as taking on obviously financially and verbally abusive live-ins and me needing to help the kids navigate their relationship with their Dad so that they could still see him but not be harmed.  Such as refusing to have one such live-in go through a police clearance process so that the kids themselves could feel comfortable and safe. .....He calls these years of unwise decision-making his "teenage" years in the coming out process but my big question is this...What parent of 40, then 50 plus years of age, has a right to a teenage anything?   Anyway, you can see that all of this pain did not end 17 years ago.
- I do feel that I have been fully healed, at times, and then others say things that hurt and that pull the scab off...fro instance, ourch, ouch and ouch when my youngest son, about a year ago, and now an adult, told me he thought I should have stayed married to my ex even though he was having affairs, so that he (my son) could have had an intact family.  Thsi hurt so much after all of my sacrifices on his behalf, but we remain close with each other
- My church denomination unknowingly and inadvertently hurts me by wringing its collective hands over and constantly writing about (in church magazines, for e.g.) how to help/support gay individuals, but it never addresses, at least collectively, how to help people like me...those who have been hurt by gay individuals, even though we are surely fairly large in numbers, too. 
- Vivian and Abby, your comments about how to communicate with clergy/church authorities about this are helpful, really really helpful, and some but not all are  line with my instincts, so it seems that with 2 or 3 of us on a similar page this may be the way to go.