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August 2, 2016 1:34 am  #1

Indications and ''symptoms''

Looking back , I ask myself , why oh why didn't I see it before ? - how is it possible that I lived  the first 10 years or so of my marriage totally unaware of it ? - was I so 'blindly' in love that I tuned all the indications out ? - in part , but I also swallowed all of the excuses, the 'reasons' - I think what must have happened is that  I over-empathised to the point where what he wanted me to  believe became fact in my mind , I trusted totally , every word - how foolish!
Looking through my mental list of 'indications' and 'symptoms' I wonder how I can have been so incredibly naïve, so emotionally manipulated - and this was before any suspicious behaviour began .....

On our honeymoon he chose to tell me about childhood sexual abuse he suffered when at school ( details of which have varied enormously over the years - to the point of me wondering ....)

Very soon after our marriage his interest in sex waned - to the point where we went several years without on several occasions 
- he told me it was normal that in time married people have less sex
- there are many marriages where they don't have sex at all
- that cuddling is more important than sex
- that he wasn't attracted to me because of what is between my legs but because of my mind
When I insisted ( how humiliating to have to beg your own husband for what is a spouse's right ) he accused me of being some kind of nymphomaniac , he told me he felt 'repelled and repulsed' when I came near him (blaming it again on the association having sex had with his childhood abuse - it was a 'trigger' that made him relive all of that horror ... so in my mind,  how could I be so cruel and selfish as to insist ... )

He speaks about everyone going through a stage of 'questioning their own sexuality ' - I certainly never went through that 'stage' , and back then the media didn't encourage it either , it was a different environment ( not saying this does not genuinely happen to many, but it most certainly is not a 'normal phase of development for everyone' - clearly it was for him )

He told me about a family friend/acquaintance who had accused him of 'making a pass at him' .... - I never fully got to the bottom of this story but I suppose he told me in case I heard something from the other party - naturally we always gave that particular friend/acquaintance a wide berth as he was 'nuts' for having made such an absurd accusation !

Then there were the things that are now screamingly obvious but back then seemed to blend into 'European-ness' - flamboyant dressing - lots of jewellery , rings , gold bracelets - he had a diamond ring he wore on his pinky that a previous girlfriend had him enlarge and wear on a different finger as she said it was 'gay' - I have never had an issue with pinky rings - my Father ( who is most definitely not gay-inclined ) has always worn a signet ring on his pinky so for me it was no issue ... so he had it reduced again and has worn it there ever since ( no big deal for me - but for him it was symbolic I guess ) - don't get me wrong, in a European setting this kind of jewellery is absolutely  no issue for a man - but his is just that bit TOO much so as to look very gay

He is homophobic when talking about his brother who is openly gay and has been for years  and my cousin who is lesbian and living with her partner  (( at least they haven't married someone of the opposite sex and made them live a lie too ))

He jokes just a little too much about the gay world, using their terminology freely , he is just a little too fascinated by anything to do with prostitution, trans etc. -  in fact when our kids were small and we  lived in a large city,  when we went out at night to eat he would detour to drive past the place where the trans hookers stand to be picked up ... just to see them and shock anyone else in the car with us .. I used to hate my kids being exposed to that

This list is getting longer and longer ... as I am writing more things are coming to mind ... I guess its a kind of written talk therapy !

I have seen him checking guys out, the way a man would leer at a woman - then he will make some critical comment as though he was looking and thinking ' what IS he wearing ' kind of a thing ....

I noticed how whenever we would take a journey by train he would always have to go to the bathroom in the train station - they are always the most filthy places - now I wonder if these are places to pick someone up for some quick action - I feel sick to think of it , but its all part of a big picture

He flirts with men - but he does it with women too so its not so glaringly obvious - until it is ... waiters, air stewards, bank managers, night club owners ... the list is long....he is very charming and people 'fall for him', his wit , his interesting stories of his travels  ( now I realise most of which are either totally made up or seriously embellished to entertain / shock his listeners - anything to be the centre of attention )

Since very early in our marriage he would need to ' go out and drive around to clear my head ' ... now I wonder where he went to clear his head so often

Once he came back with clear bruises  at the same point on both arms ( evidently someone grabbing him from behind )

He travelled A LOT for business .....

Spent a long time on his computer / blackberry / phone

This is a list of glaringly obvious indications / '' symptoms'' - yet I somehow ignored them all ... much later symptoms of betrayal began to surface, which is what alerted me to the fact something was going on in my marriage .....I will write about those some other time ......


August 2, 2016 11:36 am  #2

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

Welcome Sally,

You certainly may not have covered everything you want to cover in your post, but every single thing you touched on is a red flag.  I read your piece and said "Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep...." to everything.

How could you not have known?  First, stop beating yourself up right now.  It is so easy to not have known, especially 10+ years ago.  Straight women do not contemplate or envision marrying gay men, period.  We just don't.  Right?  Gay men date and live with gay men.  Right?  Our mom, aunt, grandmothers, fathers, etc never sat around the dining room table warning us about marrying gay men.  And for many of us back in day the question would really have been Why?  What's the point?  Why would a gay person marry a straight person.  Growing up my folks had lots of gay friends. None of them married though.  And everyone knew they were gay but it did not really matter.  My older relatives warned me about marrying people that were physically abusive, alcoholics, and mentally ill.  But nope not once did they warn me about a man on the Down Low.   Today, the idea of gays marrying straights is seen in the media.  Hopefully this brings this issue to the forefront.  

You did not see it because we don't expect it and you did not see it because he did not want you to see it.

Its not your fault.   Were you emotionally manipulated?  Yeah.  Were you naive?  Yeah.  But its still not your fault.  (There is something nice about naiveté that we can't get back once its gone.  I kind of miss that quality in myself).  But it is not your fault and blame to carry around.  Process it and then let it go.  You are not to blame.  You have done nothing wrong.

But now that you know, try not to sweep it under the rug and fall under the trance of being "In Denial".  It is so easy to do and so many of us do it, that I am mentioning it to you now.  Don't let another 10 years slip away on someone who can't give you what YOU need.  Start thinking about your life; your needs, your desires and what you want.  Focus on you.  Once you do this, you will find your truth and the answer.

Good luck.  This is a tough one, but there is life after TGT (The gay thing).

"No matter how hard the journey may be, remember to be kind to yourself..."

September 23, 2016 6:52 pm  #3

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

WendiT wrote:

Welcome Sally,

 Our mom, aunt, grandmothers, fathers, etc never sat around the dining room table warning us about marrying gay men. ..... My older relatives warned me about marrying people that were physically abusive, alcoholics, and mentally ill.  But nope not once did they warn me about a man on the Down Low.    

You did not see it because we don't expect it and you did not see it because he did not want you to see it.

Its not your fault.   Were you emotionally manipulated?  Yeah.  Were you naive?  Yeah.  But its still not your fault. 

Isn't that the truth! And all of us here will be part of the first generation to add down low/being duped on our list of talks with our children. And in my case cross dressers & trans. Because it is NEVER JUST ABOUT CLOTHES!. Never! 99 % of the stories i've read about being blindsided by the Transgender announcement all start off with "He told me when we (first) met that he was a cross dresser, liked to dress in lingerie as a stress release and I thought, sure, sounds pretty harmless to me & I am pretty openminded"..............5/10/30 years later you find all kinds of shit hidden around the house, in gym bags, the moodiness gets more frequent & they become more distant, then you are being told "I'm not happy & I need to identify with...?...(the opposite sex)." or something to that effect. You feel like your world blew up *then*, after hearing the Transgender word come out of their mouth, but really, you were shown it over & over again throughout the years. In the gym bags, in the attic, the locked down accounts, mechanical sex or sparse sex then *weird* sex then zero sex. Clothes bought for you at Christmas, then suddenly disappear, sudden interest in movies with TG's & gay men as lead roles, finding out *business trips* were actually full on trans getaways, yet you haven't been on a holiday in fucking decades, money withdrawn from accounts but no eveidence of anything coming in, finding secret paypal account slips, no more invitations to come along as his/her date to drag events, sudden & out of character compassion for your own depression & sadness where years ago he had zero patience for anything less than "workhorse/productive" mentality, a sudden disdain for anything "mainstream", including male clothes (even gifts are snubbed when they are male-mode), mainstream people & personalities, holiday destinations & dreams of places to retire are now no longer anything but trans accommodating.. Bloody hell!! I can't believe I'm now just seeing all this crap I was blind to. No kidding, "Constantly adjusting my new normal"!!!   

The one good thing I tell myself that came out of this crappy waste of my life is that my kids will NEVER go thru this. Not on my watch. 1. My gaydar has never been better. 2. Because they are aware of his cd-ing & now TG progression they see how that one simple *innocent* tendency/fetish will always lead to Transgder, especially if CD is accepted. ...."What's the difference between Cross dressing & Transgender?....2 years!"

My daughter went on a date with someone who admitted he "liked wearing women's clothing at hallowe'en & other costume parties"...I told her RUUUNNNNNN!!!! He is feeling you out to see what your reaction is. Her response was "Well, Dad's a great guy & it could actually be fun to also have another side of them to share girlie things with blahblahblah"..I then told her "One day, I will tell you how insidious this all is, when you can separate *dad* from this issue. If someone would have told me these things when i was her age I would not be here, on this board, desperate for hope & faith & complete strangers to tell me "It's not your fault!" that life will not always be about how his bullshit has affected my life.

My husband always told me in our beginnings that I'm "too open, talked too much & share too much". Hells ya!!!! I will never not tell my truth to my kids. I would rather go down as a loudmouth outting bitch than see one more young lady (or man) venture off on a path she has no effing idea how miserable & dark & lonely the final destination is.  

Bless y'all for letting me rant. 


September 23, 2016 6:58 pm  #4

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

And I'm sorry, I wanted to say "welcome" to you Sally & Ynadin. Sorry for the crank, it's been a particularly tough day/week

i hope you both find as much comfort, answers & resolution as I have found here. ....and hopefully not as many bitchy skittles as I have apparently found :/


September 25, 2016 3:49 pm  #5

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

I am so confused  and need any feedback that will help me understand my situation that has been going on for well over 9 years.   I am been with my husband for 13 years and married for 10.  We met in medical school and he was actually married to someone else at the time.  His ex-wife mumbled something to me once and I asked her what she meant by that and she responded - I am not going to talk about our sex life with you but you will find out in due time.  I did not know what she was referring to as we were have great sex at the time.  After about a year, he started getting sick and he found out he had colon cancer.  During this period of time, he did not feel well and was treated for cancer with radiation, surgery and chemo.  After his recovery, he had to have a colostomy (permanent).  We talked about this and continued to have sex on occasion and even got married after his surgical procedure.  We then went through medical residency together and the hours and time away from each other did not foster a sexual relationship.  After we finished residency, he had to go to an alcoholic rehab center for 3 months.  When he returned home, he seemed to have no interest in sex at all.  He did watch a lot of porn - which he did before - and when I would catch him, I would be disappointed that he did not try to initiate sex with me - but spend time masturbating to porn.  It really hurt me that he was choosing porn over sex with me.

He took a job where he was gone a week and home a week.  He was not supposed to drink, but was able to predict when his sobriety urine test would come up and would drink to excess on certain days of the week.  When he did this, I was informed by my son and several other men that he would attempt to kiss them and get extra friendly when he was drinking.  Given the fact that we had sex only one time after he got out of rehab and only because he felt obligated and that was scary - that was in August of 2011.   Several times I would after I would try to initiate sex with him and he would make excuses or different sorts - even saying you don't want to have sex with me I disgust you.   I said "no"  - your condition is not an issue.  He insist that I his body disgusts me.  I reminded him that I married him AFTER he got the colostomy,

Well 5 years later, still no sex or intimacy in our marriage.  Part of his drinking and working so many hours was to pretend he was dead tired all the time and if not sleeping, would be drunk.  He seemed to not care about my sexual needs or my intimacy needs at all.  He would have very little contact me with while at home, very few conversations and make his obligatory call before he went to work and talk for maybe at most 3 to 5 min. 

I am just so confused as there are so many ways to show intimacy and sexual attention in so many ways.  He rejects all of them.  Last year I finally got him to go out of town with me on a business meeting (after his second rehab) of getting caught drinking and we had a good time - still no intimacy or sex - matter of fact he slept in the second bed or on the hotel room couch.

To sum up my fears and concerns, avoidance through actual or perceived fatigue, verified reports of him trying to kiss my son and others while under the influence, avoidance of any intimate or sexual connection with me.   Matter of fact he has begun to hate my son (age 37) and I have even heard reports that he wanted him killed and had offered people money to do it.    My son of course rejected him.  He has even grabbed his leg a couple of time in the car and on the farm gator.    When I approached him with what I heard, he denied it.  When I approached him with his perceived gay behavior  he denies it.  When I approached him about attempting to kiss other males when drinking, he denies it.  When I specifically ask him if he ever plans on being intimate with me again, he says I don't think I can have sex anymore.  This could be due to his medical condition, his sexual confusion or his addiction to porn - I just don't know.   I am very successful and attractive and he has made me feel worthless about myself.  I told him that - he has nothing to say back but the words - I know I disgust you because I disgust myself sometimes.  He goes to a therapist due to his rehab requirements but don't think he talks to her about any of this.

Maybe I have made excuses for him like, sick, tired, overworked, stressed, busy, drunk?  

He seems to compensate when he tells me and other how many "tittie  rubs" he gets from the nursing staff during his shift at the hospital.     

We are currently separated and he says he does not want a divorce, but really does not want to live with me either.  I have poked around on his phone and email and can't find any place where he is having an affair with a man or woman.  But people always have private emails and can clear their texting history too.

What does anyone else think about this scenario?  I often hear that when a person is drunk their true self comes out as well as their sexual interests?  

Would love to have feedback......

Honesty and straight forward feedback appreciated.



September 25, 2016 4:07 pm  #6

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

Hi Butterfly.   So sorry you are here, but welcome anyway.  

You asked for honest and straight forward feedback.  Here you go:
Regardless of whether or not he is gay (he most likely is based on what you describe), Why would you want to be with someone who prefers porn over his wife?  I couldn't possibly stay married to someone who made advances on my child and possibly threatened to kill him.  I wouldn't stay married to someone who didn't want to live with me.  What other reasons could you possibly need beyond these?

You've come to the right place.  Please don't hesitate to create your own new thread and tell your story in more detail and ask as many questions as you can or want.  We're all here to support each other.  You will get through this and find a happier life afterwards. 

-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 


September 25, 2016 4:38 pm  #7

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

Agreed, marriages can end for all kinds of reasons and it seems you have reason enough regardless of whatever orientation he is. I don't think it's selfish for you to say you want and need more in a spouse. This is your life, should you spend it waiting for him to come around? After this many years it doesn't sound like he's about to want to change. Keep checking back, there are some amazing insights here.

“The future is unwritten.”
― Joe Strummer

September 25, 2016 4:43 pm  #8

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

Thank you so much....I am actually a doctor and former master's level social worker.  When these things happen to you - it is hard to digest it all.  I kind of knew what people might say.... I just needed to hear it.

In disbelief and hurt someone could be that selfish without remorse.

Just remember - as I keep telling myself - this can happen to anyone.


September 25, 2016 5:25 pm  #9

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

butterfly77 wrote:

Just remember - as I keep telling myself - this can happen to anyone.

And...  You already know this, but you need to hear it from someone else to help it sink in. 


If you had seen sufficient sign of this you wouldn't have married him, so don't blame yourself or think you made a bad decision.  There is nothing you could have done to keep him from changing.  You did nothing but love him the best way you knew how, and there can be no blame assigned to you for that.  You deserve a medal for trying so hard for so long when most would have given up long before.  

Be kind to yourself!

Last edited by lostdad (September 25, 2016 5:27 pm)

-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 


September 25, 2016 5:34 pm  #10

Re: Indications and ''symptoms''

Thank you for saying that - as with many people I feel guilty about something I had nothing to do with.  I guess the guilt comes when I crave love and intimate attention from other men.  I don't hold his orientation against him  - I hold his dishonesty against him.


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