Patti,
Thanks so much for your posts.
I have been re-examining my relationship with my ex and I'm surprised at how much I feel I was 'duped'.  I haven't dated since we split and I think part of that is due to a fear that I somehow had a role i.e. Sex wasn't good enough. Which at some level  I know to not be true initially, but once we had kids the frequency really dropped. I think for a long time I thought it was just what happens when you have kids. But for it to go on for years plus what I would now describe as a general lack of emtional intamacy her coming out makes way more sense. But very painful. 
I am still wondering about the being born a lesbian versus having an a-ha moment as part of mid life crisis after two kids.  Maybe that is a question I will never get an answer.  Getting the answer doesn't change outcome but maybe her culpability for duping me and blowing up the marriage ?

But its reassuring to know that being with someone else after dealing with a GID spouse is so much better
Thanks again

Sex is a wonderful means to intimacy in a marriage - a special connectivity that forces us to be open and vulnerable.  It is possible to have sex without intimacy - as many of us st8 spouses know.  But the ideal environment for sex is between two people who love, cherish and respect each other - who love to touch and explore and please each other.  When those components all come together - BOOM - it's magic.  It helps us connect during times of passion, of sadness, and often as a means of "making up" and reconnecting after a falling out. 

When there is no sex due to physical limitations, there should still be intimacy being built in many other ways.  It's not hard, really - touch doesn't mean sex.  It can mean a back rub, or kissing, or holding hands.  Body language can be used to speak volumes to each other.  And of course having meaningful conversations takes us to a deeper understanding and connectivity with out spouse, too.

The problem is that where there is no desire to have sex, there is often not a desire to connect intimately in other ways, either.  This is not always true - maybe the individual who is resistant to frequent sex sex has abuse in their past (which would not only limit their desire for frequency, but also limit what they feel comfortable participating in, in most cases).  Or maybe the individual is just very low sex drive.  But in any scenario where sex is limited for mental or physical reasons, then you should be seeing them want to connect in other ways, as mentioned in the prior paragraph.  They will want to be close in many ways - they'll want to have common ways to spend time together, will enjoy seeing each other, will help each other out without being asked - in big ways and little.  If you're not getting most of these (or have a pretty complete lack of all of them), there is a PROBLEM.  It is either that they other person is incapable of connecting to someone else on an intimate level, or that they don't WANT to.  Both are HUGE issues.  Incapable means they have work to do, and that the relationship will always be as limited as their personal limitations.  You cannot fix them.  Only they can fix them - if that's what they want.  If you have someone who doesn't want to build intimacy in the relationship, that means that they've either fallen away from you, or that you never really had them in the first place.  That they built a relationship of convenience for themselves - or maybe one that was born out of guilt (like in the case of an unexpected pregnancy).  They chose you because it worked for them on some or many levels.  That's all they wanted, and they desire no more.  For a bit, they can do what it takes to capture and secure you.  But once they become comfortable with the fact that they can do little and still get what they want, they WILL do so.  I think we see this more with men (where they taper off after just a short time of marriage) because as they say, men will do what is required of them.  The fact that oftentimes women don't require much is our own fault.  But they will ride it out, doing what little is required of them to get what they want.  Now, this is not to man bash.  If what a man wants is true love and intimacy, they he will do much because he is happy the woman he loves happy.  But if all he wants is the convenience of the relationship, he will not put relationship-quality work into the relationship - only enough to keep getting out of it what he desires.

Once we start griping, and someone with a convenience-based marriage starts to be pressured to provide more, they only have a few choices.  They need to provide more if they want to stay.  They can do this by actually providing us with more, or they can string us along to believe they're GOING to provide us with more - hoping that our patience and their acting will buy them time until they need to play that game again.  And again - this is so much easier for men to do than it for women.  Men, generally speaking, will accept no less than sex once they start complaining that they want more of it.  Women, on the other hand, can be pacified with a little bit more sex, and a whole slew of other things that they think prove their husband's desire for them - like romance, kindness, comforting, some benign but thoughtful touching (massaging, hand-holding, kissing), etc.  This all goes into a woman's intimacy bank and it will be a while before she notices that she's still not getting more sex, and that now the other stuff is waning, too.

The other way that a spouse who married for convenience gets out of paying into marriage what their partner requires is by gaslighting their partner.  Maybe it's making them feel guilty for asking for more - as if we have no right to ask for more than we receive.  Or maybe they will tell you that you're putting too much pressure on them - "it's going to make the problem worse!"  Or maybe they'll blame the lack of sex on YOU - how you aren't as desirable as you used to be, or how you've let yourself (or the house) go, and he can't get into the mood anymore.  Que you running yourSELF ragged to be good enough to get what he never mentioned was a problem until you complained about it.  Life is all about them - THEIR stress level, their need for peaceful sleep in a different room, their need for time out away from the rigors of family life.  They make themselves into their own entity (vs. the couple you see yourselves as) because they do not see themself as a piece of a couple.  They are them, and you are theirs, too.

In the end, we need intimacy.  I will never forget being in a counseling session when the my ex said to the counselor, "I don't understand - why can't she just turn OFF the need for intimacy?".  It was then that my counselor realized the futility of the joint counseling - it wasn't about "us" at ALL.  It was about him - and how he had issues and limitations that were limiting the marriage.  It was from the point forward that it was suggested that the ex attend counseling alone.  The therapist's response to my ex was "Intimacy is a human NEED.  It's not something you can "turn off"."  They want us to turn it off because they cannot and do not want to turn it ON -  not with US, anyway.

We will continue to beg for more love, affection and sex as long as we believe that we believe there is hope of getting it.  Once we realize that we're going in circles with one foot nailed to the floor, we begin to lose hope.  And once there, we realize that hope for attaining what we want is futile, we have to decide whether we want to accept living this way, or if we would rather call it quits and leave the situation.  It's not always about trying to find someone / something better.  Sometimes being alone is better than being in that hopeless situation - being alone is better than choosing to remain complacently unhappy.  More often than not, it is fear that prevents us from moving forward.  Or guilt - which is just fear of what other will say.  But courage is not being unafraid - it is moving forward DESPITE being afraid.  If you wait until you gain courage, you never will.  Courage is a decision to row during the storm anyway.  It won't make the storm go away, but your rowing may help you get to the edge of the storm faster than if you just saw there waiting for it to pass.  The time is going to pass one way or the other.  I'd rather row for a shore that I can't see than decide that there probably isn't a shore anyway, and never try.  The shore IS there - SOMEWHERE.  I'll eventually bump into it if I row hard and long enough.  Guaranteed.

Once you have sex with a st8 person whom you love and who loves you, it's night and DAY different from the sex we were resigned to.  It's not the difference between a good game and a bad game of little league baseball - it's the difference between a bad game of little league against a good pro league.  Not even able to compete against each other.  Mind.blowingly.different.  It was never supposed to be hard.  We just accepted that it must have supposed to have been.  We were wrong.  It's as easy as slipping on a banana when it's right.  No work at all.

Kel

Kel - holy shit.  "I'd rather row for a shore that I can't see than decide that there probably isn't a shore anyway, and never try.  The shore IS there - SOMEWHERE.  I'll eventually bump into it if I row hard and long enough.  Guaranteed.

SOMEBODY CALL THE BUMPERSTICKER FACTORY!! 

Seriously though - I'm applying that to a situation in my life...right now.  Good point.  Sometimes it just takes someone to make the point for you. That one smacked me in the head.

Wow..  some good sayings in this thread.

"rather row for a shore that I can't see"..     yeah kind of like my bible quote one needs faith... a busload of faith ...all around us with TGT its very hard to see..  I would say the shore is not there at all.   Even now , I'm divorced and away from my abusive gay ex..I'm so much better..but still wounded and hurt and adrift.

"All bets are off if your partner has checked out and cannot be trusted at all".    Yeah that was a fundamental turning point for me..  one finds what really matters in life..  the house,   our way of life  mean very little if your spouse has discarded you and is cheating on you.    (I remember looking around the house as she was out chearting...thinking this is gone..all gone...it means nothing)
I'm not going to beat myself up about the sex  but there were only signs that something was "off" with her.. not totally off as run for the hills..  but there nonetheless.    

May we all find strength and peace knowing we  are lovable.  
 

Last edited by Rob (August 5, 2016 8:51 pm)

There is ALWAYS hope, guys.  Some of us have our work cut out for us with regards to how much healing we have yet to do, and the lifestyle changes we need to put into place (and get acclimated to) in order to start our journey on our own again.  However, PLEASE don't think that because there's a lot to do means that you'll be at this for years.  You may or may not be, but assuming that is just overly daunting.  Think of it like losing weight.  When we have a ton to lose - 100 lbs. or more, then looking at one pound seems to make no difference in the grand scheme of things.  But really, losing 100 lbs. is just losing 1 lb. 100 times.  Seriously.  You just have to keep losing one point.  There's no deadline.  Just reach for another 1, and eventually, you'll be 5 lbs. in.  Then 10, then 50, then 99.  With ONE pound left to go.  It's insurmountable to lose 100 if you look at the lifestyle changes necessary to lose that as a lump sum.  But who can't lose 1 lb.?  We can ALL do that.  That is the same as this journey.  You just keep on keeping on - toward a better life.  It gets easier and easier the more you get the hang of it.  It's like starting a new job and feeling every day like, "I have NO effing idea wtf I'm doing", and then one day - weeks or months later - you turn around and realize how much you know - how much you've accumulated in one little bit at a time.  Enough to teach someone else.  It kind of sneaks up on you - you go from "I know nothing" to "I know a lot of this now!"  You never actually feel yourself getting closer.  You just.... arrive there and are thrilled!  That's what this is like.  You just keep doing what you need to do and then one day, you turn around and you find you're in a different place.

I'm no writer or life coach, by the way.  I'm a secretary.  Lol.

I have been giving more thought to writing, though.  Even my mother (who rarely tells me anything good about myself at all) has started telling me that I should write a book.  I discussed it with dh last night, and said, "What's the book supposed to BE about (I still plan on writing one about The Gay Thing, but this would be a different book altogether)?  Dh said, "your life experiences".  I was like, yeah, but..... what have I gone through that anyone's that interested in beyond the gay thing?  And maybe having a emotionally disturbed child - which is more depressing than encouraging.  Dh said, "You've been through SO much more than that".  I'm like, "Haven't we ALL?  We've all got our stuff.  It's a given".  And he just said, "Yeah, but you have SO.MUCH stuff, and it's not normal stuff."  Still, I feel like I'd have to write the damned book as a ghostwriter - I can't divulge what I've gone through without my entire family disowning me.  Maybe I'll take a writer's workshop or something.  Because I am aimless on this project.

Kel

P.S. - Rob, the shore IS there.  You may be too far away to see it right now, but it's THERE.  Keep rowing and you'll see land one day.  And then you'll start to see yourself get closer and closer to it.  Don't give up hope for a complete recovery and absolutely amazing life after this.  I swear to you it can happen - it likely will happen, so long as you're enthusiastic about it.  Just row for a while - it'll make your arms feel sore and then you'll notice how strong and ripped they're getting.