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June 20, 2017 4:48 pm  #11


Re: How can they continue to deny

Bec, 
He may never admit it and trying to get him to is a futile, exhausting effort.  Keep going.  The important thing is you know what you want and I agree with JKPeace, keep going, even if baby steps.  Clarity will come in all forms.  As for the kids, kids are resilient, and they know more than you think.  What message do you want to send your kids?  Staying married has nothing to do with loving them.  It has everything to do with them feeling loved, from both parents, and not put in the middle.  You and your kids deserve happiness, not looking over your shoulder all the time wondering if he's lying.  As for guilt, I would say this:  stop beating yourself up.  Think how awful the kids life will be knowing you are miserable and staying in your marriage for them.  All kids need is to feel safe and loved.  How old are your kids? 
It's not ugly to state what you want and need, though our GID will always deflect guilt and shame on us.  It's much easier for them to not face the truth of what they've done.   You can keep it as civil as you want, and when it gets to a point where you feel you can't, let your attorney step in.  I had to do that, because he kept trying to get me into the dirt, and I wasn't interested.  So I offered my attorney a flat fee with clear instructions of what I wanted the outcome to be, and let him do all the work.  My work was on healing.  
You can do this.  Keep posting and we are all here, totally getting it, and cheering for you and your kids. 
M


“Above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely of places.”
 

June 20, 2017 8:06 pm  #12


Re: How can they continue to deny

The councillor told me that he had reached out to her because he wanted to see what she based her counciling on and how they could work together.  I'm not the only member of the church that goes to her, but I am the one bucking their beliefs.  He actually is the one that recommended her in the beginning.  He then on Sunday told the congregation that he had gone to talk to a councillor in that town, so I know he went.   I don't believe my councillor would tell him anything but I'll see her tomorrow.   That is now my delima.  My GID husband wants to go with me.   I have no desire to council with him anymore, but if helps out an end to this it might be worth it. 

I have 3 children 22, 10 and 7.  The 22 year old knows what is going on.  The 10 year old is concerned because dad is sleeping in the basement and she saw a book of his called "i don't want a divorce". 

On a side note my councillor recommended a book to me called "God's been divorced too".  It helps a lot with the religious side of things.

     Thread Starter
 

June 21, 2017 9:36 am  #13


Re: How can they continue to deny

I'd recommend going to your counselor alone this next visit.  Discuss with her the idea of bringing your husband in, but ONLY for the purpose of helping him to accept that this is ending.  See what her thoughts are.  Even if she says it's a good idea, you still need to ask questions of her - about how she will help facilitate that.  And she needs to tell you what the pastor asked of her, and what she told him, too.

I do NOT like that you had to find out that your pastor contacted your counselor via a group message to the congregation.  I think that's very underhanded of your pastor, in my opinion.  He should have better judgement than to announce something from the pulpit that hits someone personally in the audience without telling that individual prior to said announcement.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

June 21, 2017 10:29 am  #14


Re: How can they continue to deny

The pastor wanted to see how they could work together??  I think it is extremely odd and unacceptable that he went to her about anything.  I forget (is she also a member of your church)?  But....even if she is, there is absolutely no reason your pastor should be discussing anything with her at all.  His connection to her/you/your husband/ as it applies to counseling should have ended with his recommendation to go see her.  This is the only extent to which he should be involved.  It doesn't matter if he recommended her or not, these two things (church and counseling) are mutually exclusive.  I believe what he did broke some laws, or at the very least has huge ethical issues. 

 

June 21, 2017 11:42 am  #15


Re: How can they continue to deny

Bec, I was going to post something yesterday about pastors but ended up deleting it because I did not want to come across as harsh. Having now read that you learned in a church service that he had approached your counselor I feel I must speak up to warn that some pastors, particularly in independent churches which do not have a superior overseeing them, overstep boundaries and will claim that whatever they do is what God wants.

At its most extreme this leads to what some would call cults and acts which make headlines. In less extreme situations it crushes individuals and eventually drives some away from God.

I can't speak for Catholic theology but Protestants believe that each person can speak directly to God through prayer and that God answers directly: there is no need for an intermediary to tell you what God
wants you to do. In my case my husband decided after 30+ years of marriage to come out of the closet and divorce me when his parents were deceased. I began going to church again at that point because I
needed to find my faith and I have found peace. I didn't go for the sermons: I needed the silent prayer time to let the anger and mistrust out and to love again.

Perhaps the church that you are attending now is one that is not going to allow you to this. That the pastor is trying to team up with your counselor is a flashing-red-lights-and-sirens warning that he will do whatever he can to maintain control over you. Perhaps it is time to get out of this church and find one where the pastor does not think he is God.
   


Try Gardening. It'll keep you grounded.
 

June 21, 2017 12:03 pm  #16


Re: How can they continue to deny

The more I think about it, the more enraged I get about your pastor talking to your counselor.  I hope to hell that your counselor told him was that due to client confidentiality laws, she cannot speak to him about you.

I suppose that this COULD potentially have nothing to do with you in particular, but be about the pastor reaching out to the counselor to find out what her counseling views are on divorce.  If he is dead-set against divorce - even in cases like yours - then I suppose he'd likely want to know that before he recommended someone as a counselor if their views aren't supported by him.  I highly resent though that a pastor would ONLY recommend a counselor if she subscribed to the EXACT same belief system as he did.  I'm not even sure that's possible.

I think you should ask the counselor point-blank about the pastor reaching out to her.  If she talked to him about you at all, I'd walk.  I have had 3 kids in counseling, as well as my ex husband.  And their counselors wouldn't tell me a THING about the sessions without the child/ex in the room, giving express permission.  I couldn't even ask if they thought the sessions were helping my kid.  Zero info.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

June 21, 2017 12:55 pm  #17


Re: How can they continue to deny

Thank you all for your concern.  I did decide to go to the councillor by myself today.  I also spoke to her about my pastor.  First let me say in her defense she told me right away, before she met with him, that he had reached out to her.  She and I both assumed it was because she was supporting my decision to divorce.  She told me today that they only discussed her overall views and basis for counciling and that he wants to see her on a personal counciling level.  She said he didn't bring up anything else or anyone else.  Apparently, he is looking for someone to hold him accountable in his walk as well.   

I truly hope this is all true.  I am not the only member of our church that sees her, so there is a chance that I was being over sensitive.  I'm still a little unsure as I know he is telling my husband to never stop fighting for the marriage.   Time will tell I guess.

     Thread Starter
 

June 21, 2017 2:47 pm  #18


Re: How can they continue to deny

She was my councillor first and isn't counciling my husband separate.  She had one session with him, with my permission and then two joint.  It was my pastor that went to her for counciling.   I questioned why he was going to her but she assured me today that it was all person for him and no mention of anyone else was ever made.

     Thread Starter
 

June 21, 2017 4:33 pm  #19


Re: How can they continue to deny

Something is very very odd here.  Her response should be when asked as an ethical counselor is that she cannot share who her patients are nor can she share anything she has talked about, even on a general level.  It's a privacy law here in the states called HIPAA.  She can actually lose her license (if she has one) even mentioning that a patient is a patient of hers.  If you had run into the pastor in the waiting room, that is ok.  But it is most certainly NOT ok for her to answer your questions or his about anything unless you give consent. 

May I suggest another counselor is the best route to go here, to be sure you are working with someone who is truly working in your best interest? 

I was a domestic violence and sexual assault counselor for years, and even if someone asked me about someone they saw in the waiting room, my response was always, "I'm sorry but even if I was seeing them I can't confirm or deny because of federal privacy laws."

Ridiculous! 


“Above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely of places.”
 

June 21, 2017 9:06 pm  #20


Re: How can they continue to deny

I agree with maresyd that you may be better off finding another counselor. You know what you want and you know what your pastor and husband want. To follow the path that is right for you you need to put some distance between you and them. Even seeing the pastor in the waiting room could be stressful. You so much need a place where you feel safe.

Christian counselors I think are not always licensed and professional ethics get loosey-goosey. Try to find a licensed counselor has NO connection to your pastor or your husband so you candevelop the courage to do what you need to do.  


Try Gardening. It'll keep you grounded.
 

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