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July 4, 2016 4:41 pm  #11


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

Bryon,

I appreciate your thoughtful post.  You ask a great question: "Why did I responded to my daughter when she asked if mom is gay by telling her to ask her mom?" I think the truth is that I was, and still am, conforming to what I perceive as the societal norm of not outing anyone.  It seems like conventional wisdom says that only the gay person gets to out themselves.  Sounds like Dr. Phil right?  Part of it too is that I love my ex.  I don't want to hurt her.  And then there is some low self-esteem at play as well.  Like I said, you asked a great question.  I love the reference to Thesolonians.  Paul says much the same thing in Romans 12:2.  I had not thought to apply that here.  Something to think about for sure.

So why doesn't my ex out herself and be done with it?  After I realized I need to move on with my life and that I want to do that in an open an honest way I asked her if she had told the children.  This was maybe a week ago.  She was shocked that I asked.  She said she had not.  She went on to say that her feelings lately have been that she isn't so sure that she wants to be in a lesbian relationship.  She all but said that she wasn't sure that she was gay.  Her words were carefully chosen to limit conviction though.  She said that she missed being married and she missed being with a man (I didn't ask her what she meant by "being with a man").   At this point I don't discuss it with her.  She and I have not spoken of TGT in over a year until last week.  I didn't point out to her how sure she was about being gay when she confessed it to me.  I did not remind her of the explicitness with which she described her attraction to the female form.  I did not remind her that, until me, all of her sexual encounters had been with women.  I didn't suggest that maybe what she missed had nothing to do with sexual attraction at all.   She went on to say that there was no point in stirring anything up with the children as long as she is unsure about her sexuality.  Of course I am thinking okay, be honest about that with the children then.  Tell them you were with women before dad, during, and after dad but you aren't sure where you are with that now.

Geez, you know it really helps to say this stuff out loud.  As I read what I am writing I become even more convinced that she is avoiding being honest with herself and those around her.  It is consistant with her nature.  She is very well liked by people.  She has a knack for being non-confrontational.  She never stands for anything.  (Except with me when she decided to get rid of me).  This is how she never mentioned having been an active lesbian when we were dating.  She knew that I wasn't going to be cool with being married to someone who didn't find me sexually attractive.

To those who may read this that are new to TGT I will say that it does get better.  When my ex told me that she was thinking of doing a man again I didn't care.  Very cool.  That would likely have bothered me two years ago.  My only angst is that I hope she is honest with the next guy.

At this point I don't care what she says her preference is these days.  I know what it was when she was with me.  At this point I want to tell MY story:  Here is what I saw.  This is what she said to me.  This is what she did.  This is how I felt.  This is where I am today.

 

July 4, 2016 11:19 pm  #12


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

Rick,

I so hope you will be able to come out of the closet as soon as possible. Because this is not just your wife's story to tell. You have lived it, you have hurt, you have suffered. You have a story to tell and it is as much yours as it is hers.

I truly believe in this quote from the theologian Frederick Buechner: “What we hunger for perhaps more than anything else is to be known in our full humanness, and yet that is often just what we also fear more than anything else. It is important to tell at least from time to time the secret of who we truly and fully are . . . because otherwise we run the risk of losing track of who we truly and fully are and little by little come to accept instead the highly edited version which we put forth in hope that the world will find it more acceptable than the real thing. It is important to tell our secrets too because it makes it easier . . . for other people to tell us a secret or two of their own . . . ” 
― Frederick BuechnerTelling Secrets

May God bless you and keep you. 

Sue


"You want a man who messes up your lipstick, not your mascara."
 

July 5, 2016 9:49 am  #13


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

Rick - welcome to SSN. I'm pleased you're here, and I hope you find it a useful place as you navigate these waters.

Honestly I don't have a lot to add - I just wanted to say it sounds to me like you really have your head screwed on, and you are handling this incredibly well. To have got through the early days of this without somewhere to vent about it, I am very impressed. I'm nearly a year out from disclosure now, divorce nearly finalised, and I couldn't have got through this without this place! 

I'm pleased to see you write "Geez, you know it really helps to say this stuff out loud" because it does really make a difference! I've found this place to be a refuge, a place where people will get me when I talk through this. 

From my perspective today, what we are really doing is supporting each other through breakups, and their fallout. TGT changes things a bit, but for the most part we are all supporting each other through the pain and transition that follows a break up. At times I think we can get distracted by TGT, and give our exes the benefit of the doubt more because of their own confusion or uncertainty or whatever. As Kel has taught me well (thank you Kel!) it doesn't matter about their orientation, for example, if she was cheating on you on vacations with her friend it doesn't matter what sex that person is - cheating is cheating, and if that's a deal breaker for you, then it's a deal breaker! 

There is a trend for us straight spouses to be giving types, putting others before ourselves - you have every right to have things the way you want them. Life is of course compromise, but if you're not happy, then things have to change!

I respect your decision in not outing your ex. I see no need for us to cause pain or difficulty for others, especially if the motivation is simple revenge - that is not productive, and would make things harder for you, your children and your ex. If it gets to you though, come here and tell us about it! We'll listen - if we were in a room together, we'd been nodding along as you did so

All the very best.

Bob

 

July 5, 2016 12:09 pm  #14


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

I haven't posted here in quite a while, between divorcing my X and immersing myself in research about narcissism and other personality disorders. I came back here today because I too am thinking about expanding the circle of people I tell about TGT. I'm in a similar situation to yours, post-divorce with an X who is backtracking on TGT and hoping I will never tell another soul, including our children, a teenager and two adults who are, I believe, clueless about it. 

I am convinced that most closeted spouses who remain in denial even after discovery or confession are narcissists who stay in the closet purely in the interest of image management, which is a core motivation for the personality disordered. One thing that this discussion has helped clarify for me is that I have been buying into my X's framing of TGT as some deep secret that I need to keep, when the reality is that his fear of being "outed" is rooted in the shame he feels about his sexuality. That is not my shame to carry and never has been--have never thought being gay is something to be ashamed of. So why am I continuing to keep that secret for him? Thanks to the posters here for helping me examine that question in new light. 

 

July 5, 2016 2:10 pm  #15


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

The only problem I have with telling some people is some of my close friends have a hard time understanding it..that our spouses like the same sex.    If doesnt matter if they have no problem with gay people..   that one's own spouse can change like this is hard to comprehend.  For some our spouses not old committed adultery but broke a taboo.  Not only do we have a hard time with it but friends and family do also..
 

Last edited by Rob (July 5, 2016 7:38 pm)


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

July 5, 2016 6:27 pm  #16


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

If I don't live my truth then he keeps me in "his closet." I will not live there.

 

July 5, 2016 6:29 pm  #17


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

I was Bonnie on the former forum. Married 30 years, now 70 years old.

 

July 8, 2016 5:12 pm  #18


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

Hi OtherKat, you wrote:

"I am convinced that most closeted spouses who remain in denial even after discovery or confession are narcissists who stay in the closet purely in the interest of image management, which is a core motivation for the personality disordered. "

I thought that way too for a long time, but I don't buy into the "narcissist" personality disorder theory for closeted gays and lesbians anymore; I think that is a misdiagnosis, and I have several reasons for thinking that. I also think there's a different dynamic at work for closeted gays and lesbians. This was hard for me to wrap my head around it for the longest time, because the idea of "narcissism" has been so ingrained into this topic, that I resisted letting it go until recently. Again, I fall back on my therapist for helping me see this through a different prism now. I'll try my best to explain it the way she did for me.

She explained the difference between narcissism (a long-standing, unchanging personality trait) and about a defense mechanism called "reaction formation" which eventually has to break down because reality eventually catches up to the person who uses it. Basically, it's a behavior where a person acts as if they are the opposite of what s/he truly is, often to such an extent that s/he convinces himself of it, and others too.   

And she said, it's important to distinguish between behaviors and traits. Behaviors are those actions we can see and observe and describe. Traits are long-term, "built-in" characteristics of a person. Example: "Jimmy is an okay dude most of the time, and I like him, but sometimes he can be a real jerk." That's a behavior. "I can't stand that guy Jimmy, he's always a jerk to everybody, and he's been like that his entire life." That's a trait. Both times he's described as a jerk, but with different connotations. Narcissists are unmistakeable and almost always, everybody has a similar reaction to a narcissist ("geez, what an a**hole.") Everybody reacts that way. Behaviors are different, some people witness it firsthand, while others might never see it. That's why people are so surprised to learn our spouses are gay or lesbian; they never see the behaviors that we see. If they were narcissists, everybody would think what we do: what inconsiderate a**holes they are.

I looked up "reaction formation" online, and noticed one example that kept showing up on different psychology sites: the closeted gay or lesbian person who does everything possible, consciously and unconsciously, to convince himself and others, that he is heterosexual.  

Examples from different sites:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm
    A person who is angry with a colleague is actually courteous and friendly towards them.
    A man who is gay has a number of conspicuous heterosexual affairs and openly criticizes gays.
    A mother who has a child she does not want becomes very protective of the child.
    An alcoholic extols the virtues of abstinence.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reaction_formation
    A closeted gay person who, outwardly, is a rampant homophobe.
    A gay person who marries a partner of the opposite gender in an effort to prove, whether to others or to themselves, that they are straight.
    A parent who dotes on a child they secretly hate.
    A homophobic parent of a gay child.
    A philanderer who chastises other promiscuous people.
    An addict who favors strict punishment for all substance abusers.

I found this next one to be especially helpful and clear, and convinced me that my previous use of narcissism had been incorrect. This fit my experience so perfectly, - it couldn't have gotten it much closer - and is a much better fit (for me at least) than narcissism:

http://study.com/academy/lesson/reaction-formation-in-psychology-definition-example.html
A popular figure of speech is the phrase 'the lady doth protest too much.' Taken from Shakespeare's Hamlet, the saying is often used to refer to people who appear to be dramatically, and emphatically, opposed to something in an effort to hide their true feelings or desires.

In psychology, this type of behavior is known as a reaction formation, and it can, at times, be very confusing. Reaction formation is a kind of psychological defense mechanism in which a person perceives their true feelings or desires to be socially, or in some cases, legally unacceptable, and so they attempt to convince themselves or others that the opposite is true--often in a very exaggerated performance.

If this description seems confusing, consider this example. A teenager comes to the conclusion that he is gay, but because he was raised in a family that believes being gay is a serious sin, he feels the need to hide his homosexuality. Because he believes that his sexual orientation is sinful or unacceptable, he goes to great lengths to prove to everyone around him (and possibly himself) that he is stereotypically heterosexual. This might manifest itself in risky sexual behaviors with multiple people, using homophobic language and slurs, or other types of exaggerated performance. In most cases, reaction formation is very easy to identify. It often appears hyper, unreasonable, and obviously showy in order to attract as much attention as possible.

 ******
 
If that last part read "in order to deflect attention away from the real issue" instead of wanting to attract attention, I'd say that example hits the nail right on the head. 100%. There are plenty of other sites, and examples like that one show up.
 
We perceive what we experience from them to be their extreme selfishness, self-centeredness, lack of consideration, etc, and so on and so forth, but somehow we have all been led to believe that is narcissism. But it isn't. Other people would notice it if they were narcissists, and I dare say, most of us wouldn't want to have anything to do with a true narcissist, let alone marry one. And narcissistic personality doesn't change; it's a trait, not a behavior. People don't become narcissists, they either are or they aren't.

We frequently describe that we can't believe how radically our exes change. But narcissists don't change. On the other hand, once reaction formation starts to break down because that person can no longer keep up the front, one's behavior does change as he is forced to adapt to a new reality.

That went on longer than I meant to, and it's a lot to digest, but I think my therapist hit the bulls-eye; this made so much more sense to me than narcissism or a personality disorder.

It doesn't change anything in what we experienced to look at it this way, but it does put a different interpretation on how and why it happened, and I found her explanation to be incredibly helpful in my recovery. If I were able to explain it as well as she did, I would submit this as a blog entry, it was that impactful for me.


"I have given you my soul, leave me my name!"  - John Proctor, The Crucible
"Question everything you've been told; hold fast to what is true and good." - I Thessalonians 5:21
 
 

July 8, 2016 6:06 pm  #19


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

 Hi Rick:
 
"conforming to what I perceive as the societal norm of not outing anyone.  It seems like conventional wisdom says that only the gay person gets to out themselves."
 
I wanted to add this as well...  I agree with the societal norm of not outing anyone, but my understanding of that, and this is what I read from gay people themselves, is that is the norm, AS LONG AS that closeted person is not harming someone else by keeping themselves in the closet. When it happens that, say, political figures are outed in the media, it's almost always someone who has worked to pass anti-gay legislation, or argued to keep gays and lesbians out of the military, or passed anti-gay laws elsewhere, while secretly having sexual encounters in airport bathrooms or having a secret male lover on the side, etc and so forth.

This might sound harsh because it's up close and personal, and as you say, you love your wife and you don't want to hurt her -- believe me, I have said the same, as other members of this forum can attest -- but I feel differently about that now. I do still love her, and I don't want to hurt my ex. But am I helping her or hurting her (and myself at the same time) by keeping that secret for her? Or am I sending a message that lesbianism is bad, wrong, something to be ashamed of, something that has to be kept hidden, which is what trapped me (and her) in her closet?

I'm not saying you should or should not out her. I didn't want to out my wife either, but if I had known then what I now know, and how I understand things now, I would have challenged her a lot more directly on her need to keep a lie, which caused nothing but harm to both her and me. What's the point?  Also, I don't have children, so I can't say for sure how that might influence me, but I would like to think I would have told my wife, "Don't ask me to lie to our children for you, that's not the relationship I want to have with them, I want them to trust me with the truth at all times." It's a shame that your wife apparently doesn't see the role model she's setting for her offspring. What if your daughter turns out to be lesbian, what kind of example is your wife setting for her?

Like I said, I don't know if I would have been able to say something like that to my ex, but I like to believe I could have, if it had been my situation, and if I had known then what I know now.


"I have given you my soul, leave me my name!"  - John Proctor, The Crucible
"Question everything you've been told; hold fast to what is true and good." - I Thessalonians 5:21
 
 

July 8, 2016 6:56 pm  #20


Re: Not outing you. Outing me.

Totally, totally agree, Byron. Well said. 


"You want a man who messes up your lipstick, not your mascara."
 

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