Hi Paula! Thanks for writing friend. In reply: 

​1. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a category of Cluster B Personalities, and they are generally not considered treatable.

​Agreed. Most of what I've read about co-dependency & narcissism supports the idea that it's untreatable.  

2. Do you really believe you are a recovering narc or do you think the GID person you once were may have been something else?

I can't really say because I'm not an expert when it comes to mental health issues. However, I am slowly becoming an expert at understanding my own journey, now that the gay fog has lifted so to speak. Given everything I've read here, gay-in-denial husbands like me have strikingly similar characteristics to people with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). I'll call them "narcs" from now own. But I think we're a different subset of narcs because our disorders are also very similar to drug or alcohol addictions. Allow me to explain.

My theory is that most gay men are perfectly normal, happy, and well adjusted until we feel the need to hide our sexuality. And that's where the seed of narcissism is planted in my opinion whereas most of what I've read states that narcs are born with the personality disorder. Starting around age 5 or 6, I just knew that my attraction to boys was somehow unacceptable and perhaps even dangerous. So I started lying. I pretended I liked girls, pretended to be straight, and even dated girls in high school. I can't tell you how emotionally damaging it is to feel wrong and dirty at such a young age. This was when I created a false self: diverting with humour; compensating through school theatre productions; and generally being a people-pleaser.  Part of being "normal" meant I dated and then later married a woman based on that lie. That's when I started going full-blown narc.

My narcissism followed a trajectory similar to an addiction, meaning that it got progressively worse in a kind of downward spiral. As a young gay-in-denial husband, I could easily pretend I was straight because my young body wanted to have sex and, for a time, responded to my wife's sexual cues. I also really wanted children. This fake me is the person my (then) wife fell in love with. But then I discovered gay online porn and it was game over for my pretend straight existence. These images represented my true sexuality, or perhaps a somewhat grotesque representation of my sexuality. Regardless, I was incredibly turned on watching men have sex with men. But I also felt horrible watching porn all the time and shame about my sexuality. And the more porn I watched, the less I could perform with my wife which was hurting her. But I couldn't come out because that would end my marriage and I was too terrified to do that. And as things got worse, I'd watch even more porn then I started cheating. But I still had to stay married because in my mind being gay was bad. This is where my narcissism really kicked in.

​So I developed a lot of narc traits: manipulation; pathological lying; gaslighting and so on. Anything it took to keep my wife confused enough so that she'd stay in our sham of a marriage. My wife wanted to work through our issues but I simply wanted to win. And by winning, that meant maintaining the illusion that I was the perfect husband and father, while trapping her in a sexless marriage. This was when the depression kicked in and down I went. More abuse, more manipulation, more porn, more cheating. It almost killed me. 

​So to answer your question, I don't think I was born with narcissistic personality disorder. I think I developed a form of gay-in-denial NPD (or GID NPD) that got progressively worse the more I acted on my true sexuality. One thing that is conspicuously absent from GID NPD is the "discard" phase. Most narcissists follow similar relationship patterns: idealize ("crazy in love"); devalue ("you're fat"); then discard ("it's over and I've found someone else"). GID husbands (GIDHs...sorry for all the acronyms) are terrified of leaving their wives because they fear being out...being gay in fact. Our wives are like anchors to a straight existence. From what I've read here, most GIDHs bump from idealize to devalue and back again, but without discarding because it's too scary to be an out gay man who is alone. That is until the cheating gay husband finds a new love interest, then he drops his wife like a hot potato and with very little remorse. Sadly I did this myself and will forever regret it.  

​In conclusion, I think my particular form of NPD was more like an addiction rather than a personality type I was born with. Once I'd treated the primary cause of my mental disorder, namely hiding my sexuality, and found both love & acceptance as an out gay man, I no longer needed all those narc tricks to maintain a false self while keeping my (then) wife in line. I no longer needed my "bag-o-narc-tricks" because I'd separated. I was out. I was free. I just didn't need to hide nor manipulate anymore. Yet when I look back at my first few months of posts on this thread, they're very gay-Gary-like because old NPD habits die hard. For example, I maintained that I loved my wife for the better part of year here but eventually had to accept that no loving husband would have done all the sh*tty things I did to this poor woman...the mother of my children in fact. That's not love and never was. It was abuse and abusive. Yes I believe there was affection and perhaps compatibility, but I was never truly in love with her. Perhaps the most loving thing I did was free her by asking for a divorce. My first true love was my closet, my secrets, my lie. So I believe my narcissism (or narcissistic traits) grew out of denying my sexuality, rather than from genes. And once I no longer lived the lie that I was straight, my NPD slowly flickered and then snuffed out completely. I agree that no one genetically afflicted with NPD could so easily overcome it. So I believe my own form of narcissism was a mix of environment and behaviour rather than hard-wired. Did that answer your question? I hope so! 

3. I have appreciated your posts for nearly a year and your understanding of what happens in a straight/gay marriage is amazing. Especially when it comes to "translating" Gary's posts. Thanks for your insights.

​That's very kind of you but I'm no hero. Like Gary, I'm just a gay ex-husband posting here, the enemy really. Gay Gary isn't a bad guy, he's just addicted to his bullsh*t story. I know the territory all too well. You and the other straight wives posting here, raising kids, and moving on are the true heroes. I've learned so much from all of you and it's really improved my relationship with both my kids and ex-wife. So thank you.  

​Be well my friends. 

Last edited by Sean (February 21, 2018 8:52 pm)

Sean,
   Beautifully said.  Beautifully written.  Achingly honest.  
   And given that you, too, smelled the hypocrisy and self-justifications and gave it to him straight (so to speak...), you are yourself one of the forum's "members" (not a pun...but...). 
   I would love to excerpt some of your post and send it to my stbx, who persists in his own closet, and in believing that it's a workable alternative that is fair (to me), healthy, and sane.  Having lived with the effects of it and seen its effects on him, I, like you, know that isn't true.  But denial and self hatred and shame will probably keep him there forever; he was willing to keep me there, too, or for me to stay there, but I, unlike him, never lived with the cognitive dissonance you describe so well, and to live like that was a crushing and alienating (from self and others) existence.  
   I love my stbx, and it hurts to abandon him to that unhealthy and unhappy cognitive dissonance in his closet, but I can't help him.  He has to help himself.  

Hello again Cindys. I'm so very sorry that you're struggling my friend. Let's have a look together at what you've shared. Here we go: 

1. Sean, I need your help again, the doubt is creeping in again. My husband and I agreed about separation and divorce. But it is hard leaving a marriage after 43 years and 63 years old. I do believe he loves me......

You have every right to feel conflicted, scared, and doubtful my friend. I'd urge you to reach out to the Straight Spouse Network, a marriage counsellor, your children, or other friends/family. Now is not the time to make these decisions alone.

2. Claims his ED problem was real, not just an excuse not to have sex with me. I do believe he has ED, I have seen on line where he has searched sites regarding ED issues. Claims the only way he can get an erection is thru anal stimulation. 

I've read a lot of excuses but that's a new one! Ummm...no. Most men take Viagra for this problem. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a doctor who prescribes "shove this up your *ss to get a boner." And why the complete lack of sex for 10 years? 

3. Claims he only had one  sexual encounter with a man for anal penetration, and he did not like it. And contracted hep B from this only encounter. Claims for the past 10 years he has had no other sex partners, he has only "had sex with myself" thru anal sex toys.

​He didn't have sex once, he got caught (and sick) once. He's lying. 

4. Claims he is not sexually attracted to men, and even though I found gay porn magazines, he says that straight men look at gay porn, too. Claims he masturbates looking at gay porn or looking at himself in the mirror.

Straight men don't like gay porn. Straight men watch straight porn. Straight men like women's bodies. 

5. The problem is I love him, and I know he loves me. And up until 2 months ago, I loved my life, I was happy, he always treated me great.

In my opinion, love isn't lying (see above). Love isn't cheating. Love isn't cruising for sex during your regular runs. BUT now you are now in control my friend. The facts simply don't add up: no sex for 10 years; the gay porn; the dildos; the cheating; the Hep B; and those strange stains. It's time to stop asking him whether he's gay and time to just accept it. He'll never admit it because he's spent his whole life in denial. His excuses are very creative, particularly the "dildos cured my ED", but he's lying to himself. Straight men have sex with their wives. Dildos are not a cure for ED. Straight men don't have sex with other men. Straight men don't collect gay porn. He's lying to you because he's lying to himself. 

6. But now I have discovered TGT. And I don't want to ignore it. I don't want to bury my head in the sand, because I don't want to stay married to a gay man or a man sexually attracted to men.

I agree. This must be incredibly confusing and I'm sorry for that. I'd urge you to reach out to friends and family to discuss EVERYTHING. (He'll fight you on this but just tell him to piss off.) You don't need to make such decisions right away, however, the longer you delay, the longer he'll have to manipulate you. In just a few days, he has you doubting again. Your biggest priority should be to ensure your financial safety/security. I'd take care of that first before you do anything else. Second, your husband is probably going to try to have sex with you again. It's a common "look I'm not gay because I can have sex with a woman" tactic. If and when he tries, use condoms because there is a very good chance he's been doing a lot more around the cruising park than he's admitting to. Third, I'd consult with a lawyer. You need to know what to do, if/when you separate/divorce. So once you've locked down your finances, you're prepared for the "honeymoon" phase when he'll try to have sex again, and you have a plan for separation/divorce, THEN you're ready to make a decision.   

​7. If I do leave him, I may be alone the rest of my life? But if I do leave, I hold onto that HOPE that just maybe I can find someone to love me and desire me sexually, even at age 63 years old. 

Again I'm so sorry you're going through this my friend. You deserve better. In times of great stress, like what you're going through, I'd consult with your friends, family, and a lawyer about a trial separation of say 4-6 months. This doesn't mean you're divorcing, and you can stress this point with him, but it will give you some time to work through all of these feelings without him. During that time, as difficult as will be, I'd recommend going no contact with your husband for at least 60 days. That means no visits, no emails, no texts, and no phone calls. Why? This will give you two months to work through all of these conflicting feelings with a marriage counselor or therapist. Once he's no longer chirping lies in your ear, I'm sure a lot more proof will come back to you. Again, I'd stress that you should only separate if you've safely locked down your finances, have a plan in place if/when you divorce, your lawyer is ready to pull the trigger, and you have a strong support network of people 100% on your side. Many straight wives were shocked at how quickly their husbands went from "PLEASE PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ME" to a very cold and business-like "f*ck you I own the house and retirement fund anyway" once they sensed the relationship was truly over. Be prepared! 

I hope that helps my friend. Keep coming back. You're not alone! 

Last edited by Sean (February 24, 2018 3:25 am)

Thank you for the shout out WasIBlind. I'm so happy that you and your children are healing after such an ordeal. Following your ex-husband's recent visit, you wrote: 

"The next day I’m straightening up the area he used, tossing trash etc. and find a receipt.  For an all male bath house, yes, *that* kind.  For one of the nights he was in town (at a location about an hour away.). No names, but an incriminating detail to suggest it is definitely his." 

You mentioned in a previous post that your husband was HIV-positive and, if I remember correctly, was spectacularly unspecific about how it happened. "Walking through the streets of Manila..." was his excuse. You also shared that he had a rather dizzying array of sex toys, including a urethral sound (a metal bar one sticks in a man's pee hole). I think catching AIDS and this receipt are proof positive that he's been frequenting saunas/bath houses for years. 

So what's my point? When a straight spouse starts posting here, she absolutely has to do two things: first, get tested for STDs; and second, only have safe sex with her gay-in-denial husband. This isn't a choice, it a question of life or death. Case in point: another gay husband has recently started posting here...let's call him Mary to hide his identity. So Mary swears up and down that he's never slept with another man, but he apparently dabbles in gay porn from time to time. And this is the problem. Gay-in-denial husbands truly believe what they're saying...or writing. I know because I've been there. After all, we convinced ourselves that we loved our wives when we only married them for cover. I certainly did. We still believe we love our wives when we reject them sexually. We still believe we love our wives when we call them "fat" or "unattractive" as some f*cked up justification for not wanting to have sex anymore. This goes far beyond lying, it's actually abuse. 

WasIBlind, you're one of the lucky ones. You realized that the gay thing was really secondary. You divorced because you realized you deserved more than a husband who was absent, neglectful, and dishonest. You divorced because he was a monumental *sshole, and a gay sauna slut to boot. You're free. Thanks for sharing your message of hope my friend. Please come back again with more updates. Be well!  

I think to some people, because of Sean's past he represents and embodies the hurtful spouses that brought them to this place.  Having a representation of that person in a place that we come to escape and heal is a trigger for some of us.  It's not fair to Sean because he is a different person than our spouses or exes, and he himself has changed from the person he was before, but some of us are triggered in ways we can't control. 

For this reason I feel it's a great compromise to ask him to keep his posts here so that members who are triggered by his presence don't have to worry about him posting on their threads.  I know Sean is compassionate enough to understand this.