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December 1, 2016 12:28 pm  #81

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

All's I was trying to do was to convey my thoughts on reading, not suggest action or find fault. I'm in no position in my glass house to throw rocks. 


December 1, 2016 3:26 pm  #82

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

We're all friends here and, as friends, we're sharing our experience and wisdom. There's no harm in that. While I always thought my own situation was unique, what strikes me is how common the journey is among gay/straight marriages. It's as if we're all following the same map. For example: 

1. Things start off fine between the gay and straight spouses and yet something feels 'not right.'
2. Sex is ok at the beginning then becomes less frequent. 

3. The gay spouse (normally a husband) becomes emotionally withdrawn and may become a narcissist. 
4. The straight spouse (normally a wife) feels this is her fault (because he says it is) and tries harder to make the relationship work. 

5. The gay spouse starts with porn, then Craigslist, and eventually cheats with other men. 
6. The straight spouse grows suspicious and starts checking his phone, tablet, and computer. She may also start visiting this website or others for support. 

7. The gay spouse gets caught, goes full-blown narcissist as a defense, and still denies he is gay. 
8. The straight spouse is in shock and yet more determined than ever to save the family/marriage. 
9. Both spouses try to explain away the gay thing: "just a phase", "absent father", "he was molested" in an attempt to see his homosexuality as something temporary and perhaps treatable. This is of course wrong. 

10. Now out, there is no going back. And the gay spouse starts a 'gay adolescence' of sex, extreme self-centredness, and irresponsible behaviour. This is when he may fall in puppy love with a new partner. 
11. The straight spouse starts to consider separation and divorce. She may consult a lawyer. 

12. The gay spouse moves out and becomes depressed and despondent for destroying everything. 
13. The straight spouse struggles both financially and emotionally. 
14. They start divorce proceedings. 
15. They may try to remain friends (and co-parents) for a time with mixed results. 
16. Straight spouse gets very very angry. 
17. They divorce. 

18. After a few years and lots of apologies, both spouses accept the end of their relationship was inevitable.
19. They move on, forgive each other, and perhaps find new partners. 
20. Life goes on.  

That's my take on it friends. What's your opinion? 

Last edited by Séan (December 1, 2016 8:51 pm)

     Thread Starter

December 1, 2016 8:37 pm  #83

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean - I think you have encapsulated what the standard progression is for those whose spouses have come out, but there is a whole group of us whose spouses never did, and probably never will come out.  In these cases, there is no forgiving and moving on is much, much more difficult, and maybe even impossible.  I read so much about "coming out".  So many articles, posts, comments, etc. are all about marriages where one spouse "came out".  There are many of us who did not get that "courtesy".

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!" - Sir Walter Scott

December 1, 2016 8:58 pm  #84

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

You make a very good point Lake Breeze. My list isn't perfect and many of us can get hung up on various stages...perhaps even for decades. Feel free to modify/change my list if you like. I was surprised to learn when posting here that I was among a minority of husbands who actually came out to his wife...the same day she confronted me in fact. I can't imagine the pain when a husband refuses to come out, even when confronted with overwhelming evidence of infidelity. Thanks for the shout out JK. How are things going with you?  

     Thread Starter

December 1, 2016 10:09 pm  #85

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hi Sean - Speaking for myself only, as a person who's spouse never actually came out, I would say it went from 7 and 8 in your scheme to 12, 13, 14, and 17.  All of the other things you mention don't happen when the gay spouse continues to deny and remain in the closet.  They remain at 7, so there's really nowhere else the straight spouse can go, and can wind up stuck kinda/sorta at 16, but divorced for a long time.  I would also add "extremely hurt" and more emotional stuff to your "very, very angry" at 16.

It's nice to have you contributing.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!" - Sir Walter Scott

December 2, 2016 1:52 am  #86

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Wanted to add a couple more things re my previous post 2 posts above.  With my did-not-come-out-spouse, Sean, your #12 was left at "the gay spouse moves out", period.  There was no feeling of depression or despondency, because he had no feeling of having "destroyed everything", although he did. He was usually always depressed, because he is gay, he knew it, and was merely using me.  That would depress anyone.  His depression had nothing to do with any feelings of having destroyed anything.  His feelings of depression were due to his feeling like "a victim" and that life had not been fair to him, etc.  That had nothing to do with having used someone for more than 25 years, and not giving a damn what that did to his children.  In fact, I think his feeling victimized legitimized his lack of caring in his mind, and actually seemed to validate his using me in his mind.  I truly believe he thought it was OK to mess up somebody else's life, because he thought his life had been messed up.

Also, it is my understanding that a person is essentially born a narcissist, as it is primarily a genetic sort of thing.  One does not "become" narcissistic because they find themselves in a difficult situation, e.g. being confronted by their straight spouse about having hidden their homosexuality for years.  My sense is that most of these gay spouses are probably narcissistic, but not because of being gay.  There are plenty of gay people who do not behave in this way, in spite of all of the societal issues they have to deal with.  I think that these narcissistic gay spouses are narcissists first, and that they just happen to be gay.  I suspect most of them do and will continue to exhibit their narcissistic behavior with a gay partner.  You can have a personality disorder whether gay or straight.  It is the personality disorder that allows a gay person to use and exploit a straight person.  It is not the repression and oppression (or depression for that matter) that a gay person experiences that causes them to behave in a narcissistic way.  It is the personality disorder they were born with, pretty much plain and simple (I think it tends to run in families too).  The fact that so many gay people live honest lives with good character and integrity demonstrates that it is not "repression" or "depression" that causes the behavior.

All of that said, I do have some serious issues with the whole mental health system of labelling, the DSM, and I do believe that the term "narcissist" gets thrown about much too frequently and cavalierly, but in a general sense, and just for the sake of example/explanation, what I said above, I believe is true.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!" - Sir Walter Scott

December 2, 2016 3:27 am  #87

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

hooray for Lake Breeze!

Yes mine will go to the grave without admitting he is gay.  It's all he cares about, his closet - or to put that another way, all he cares about is the way he appears to the world.


December 2, 2016 3:41 am  #88

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Kel wrote:

I agree with O.O.H.C. - he's gotten buy-in from you on keeping what is arguably the single biggest issue in your relationship in the closet?? How f'd up is THAT? Gee, how convenient for him! <:-/ Then he gets to put the focus on "joint" problems, which of course puts you on the defensive and makes you do work to prove that you're all in. If you're done, then don't play this game. Go to counseling for yourself. Otherwise couples counseling is for the COUPLE to get better. If you feel that you can no longer go on as a couple, then why do couples counseling? Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. I don't recommend it as it only brings more confusion. If he cares about making this work, he'd have gone out of his way long before now to show you his love, dedication and passion. The fact that he hasn't is all the counseling I'd need.

By the time my ex wanted to work hard at things, it was too little, too late. He'd shown me with his actions that he'd only give me what I needed if it affected HIM negatively. My happiness wasn't on his list of concerns unless I tried to pull away from being his beard. Then it was Emergency! Emergency! Better tell her she's beautiful and offer to rub her back! F*ck that static.

Once you get to the point where you realize that whatEVER the problem is, it isn't changing, then reasons no longer matter. Intentions no longer matter. He either can't or won't change, so you're left with the same problem, whether you can ever put a name to it or not.

Hope I'm not being too harsh. I'm on your side. I refuse to be quiet when your heart is what's at stake. You've been emotionally manipulated for so long that even when you're standing up straighter than normal, you're still bent over backwards. This is not.his.show anymore. It's yours now. Be fierce!!!


So, I mentioned Divorce to my husband and he almost lost it.  He did what Kel said above, tried to focus on joint problems and accused me that he is the only one trying to save our marriage.  I've put in zero effort to reach out to him.  So I told him that I do not love him anymore, I will never trust him again (because of the lies, the neglect, etc.) and I cannot see myself with him any longer.  I am so angry at him that I cannot stand to look at him.  His response was that he will never get divorced.

So, I started doubting myself afterwards.  Did I really try hard enough to make this work?  Am I wrong about him being gay?  Then I read Kel's post and I "get" why I am so angry with him and unmoved about his efforts.  He neglected me for months; left me to struggle with bills and raising the kids while he was unemployed (by his own doings) and depressed;  did not care one day about my well being.  Now that he stands to loose the Keeper of his Closet (thats how I think about my role in his life) he wants to work hard to keep me.  Smothering me to the point where I want to scream.  All the while he is still chatting with a guy, not knowing that I discovered this two days ago.

So, Kel, thank you for the reminder.  It is very hard to stay focused and on path while your heart wants something else.  To remember that him maybe-gay, is not the biggest problem, but rather the sea of lies, deception, manipulation, neglect, lack of growth, love, passion and I cannot even remember what else.  Therapy is definitely not going to help.  Between him and the therapist I am the worst wife ever for not understanding his problems at work and weariness and I should "accommodate the white lies." If nothing, therapy showed me that he will never face the real problems head on and will evade it as long as he lives.  

Thanks again.  I am in no position to give any advise to anybody, since I am struggling daily to keep my sanity, but I do read all the posts and comments regularly.  

Mrs Lonely


December 2, 2016 7:07 am  #89

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you everyone for sharing. Admittedly, my list (see p. 10) reflects my own personal journey so not everything I share will apply to your situations. People debate narcissism the way they debate homosexuality: nature/genetics vs. nurture/environment. I know from my own experience that my narcissism developed along a similar line to something like alcohol addiction. I think there was a kernel there in my youth (genetics), then it got worse as I hid my homosexuality in adolescence (environment), and became full-blown about ten years ago when my marriage started falling apart. I have three close friends, all gay men once married to straight spouses, who did all the narcissistic things described on this website. Like alcoholism perhaps, the way we 'reformed' was to accept we had a problem, come out to our spouses with some integrity, apologize, get professional help, and finally divorce/separate. Like different addictions, I think there can be different degrees of narcissism and different types of narcissistic behaviour from self-centredness to sociopathy. Regardless, for those wives or soon-to-be-ex-wives still dealing with a gay-in-denial-narcissists, I think it's necessary for her to disengage, read up on narcissism to learn self-protection and self-preservation techniques, seek professional help to heal from years of manipulation, and finally separate/divorce. I guess my point is that once the gay thing is out in the open, a relationship is no longer possible: regardless of whether he owns it or not. He's now on his own. As I wrote in a previous post, narcissists are scorpions, always will be, and only know how to do one thing: sting.

​Mrs. Lonely, I'm very sorry for what you're going through. Your husband is demonstrating a common pattern of narcissism. Full-blown narcissists project a very grandiose version of themselves to the world. But they are truly self-haters. Narcissists only see others as projections of themselves and need a constant supply of adoration and approval. What you've so bravely described is the pattern of a narcissist's relationship with his/her partner:   

1. Over-Valuation Stage: This is the romantic phase. It's when the narcissist will do whatever it takes to make his/her partner fall in love. It's also called "love bombing" with constant texts, letters, flowers, meals, romance, sex etc.  This is when the narcissist is wearing a mask of perfection or in our situations, the mask of a perfect heterosexual father/husband.

2. Devaluation Stage: ​During this phase, which can last for decades, the narcissist's mask starts to slip. He/she wants to control their partner through rule setting, gaslighting, and crazy making. The 'perfect' mask starts to slip showing their true (and ugly) scorpion self. The narcissist's partner wants the stage one partner back, not understanding that was a false self. This is the stage of lies, pornography, cheating, and conflict. During this stage, he/she is actively looking for a new partner often while still in the previous relationship. This is often when the gay-in-denial spouse has a new love interest...but still on the side or down low.
3. Discard: The gay-in-denial narcissist has now found a new partner and is ready to move on. Too much of a coward to end the relationship, they'll often make conditions so difficult to force their partners to leave out of an instinct for self-preservation. This may include flaunting a new relationship.

4. Repeat: ​This is often referred to as "hoovering" and this appears to be what Mrs. Lonely has referred to above. "Now that he stands to loose the Keeper of his Closet (thats how I think about my role in his life) he wants to work hard to keep me.  Smothering me to the point where I want to scream.  All the while he is still chatting with a guy, not knowing that I discovered this two days ago." This is when the narcissist isn't getting enough adoration from a new partner or when the new relationship is rocky. So the narcissist comes back to you in a repeat of "love bombing" to get you back. But taking the narcissist back will mean just a shorter and more violent repeat of the initial relationship.

​Thanks for sharing everyone and especially Mrs. Lonely. Countless others will learn from what you've so bravely posted here.

     Thread Starter

December 2, 2016 11:01 am  #90

Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hey Sean
Funny you said that they project their feelings onto others such as suggesting I could be a lesbian.  He totally did that!  Wanted to go to a strip club and have a female lap dance.  Told me he wouldn't think it was cheating if I slept with a woman.  Downloaded lesbian porn for 'me' without me asking.
Also you said they can be a good dad.  I often wondered about that why he's so good with them and kind and empathetic.


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