Séan, my advice is always follow through on what you say you'll do, to the determent of all else, make them, especially your 15 yr old your priority. My children are a lot older than yours, three in total, the middle one is much more supportive of their father than of me, I've to deal with that my own way! The other two are so hurt and repulsed by what he did (he was actively gay prior to the last even being conceived). 

My STBX (very soon, divorce in two weeks) listened to my oldest but just stared off into the distance, agreed that he couldn't argue with the points she was making, they all made sense BUT he's still not prepared to accept his responsibility in how he's handled himself since being outed. He then sent her a message saying he's been thinking about her a lot and hopes they can work through this. She replied she'd like that but it'll probably take time and asked him to let her know if/when he wanted to video chat (different countries). The next she heard from him was over four months later where he was snotty about not being informed of someone's death. She got two texts (as did I) expressing his disgust at not being informed. How I can be blamed (by him and his family) for something that has nothing to do with me is beyond me. See how it goes when you don't follow through on what you say you'll do? If he had followed through and video called her 3-4 months ago as he said he'd do they may have worked on their relationship to the point that she felt she could just text him about the death in her in-law's family (not mine, nothing to do with me but I was still the source of disgust over not being informed!). Relationships independent of your ex wife!

There's only one of our children living within visiting range of both of us, I see him regularly but my STBX has only seen him three times since Jan and once he had a new "friend" with him, SO NOT COOL! I think you said you haven't introduced your partner to them, wise move. My son doesn't know what sort of relationship this is but knows that he met him at his support group, a group for married gay men so my son's attitude is he has no interest in engaging with someone who f*$ked up another family like his father did ours. Right off the bat he's going to think this guy is not a nice person. That was never a wise move.

The other issue I have with my son is around money, our son went back studying after working for one year after graduation and we each gave him money towards his costs, but I've had to go get another loan for him. Not once has his father asked him how he's managing financially (and there's no financial issues with him). I know you might say he could get a job, he has now but the initial part of this course was very intensive and he wanted to give it his all, this paid off for him. The last time they met up was Father's Day and to meet son's girlfriend, my son said it was a nonversation, his girlfriend said it felt like he was just ticking a box, ask the basic questions and get out of there, didn't engage properly, they felt it was an inconvenience to him, kinda like JKPeace said about constantly being on the phone, they feel abandoned and they're a chore.

Make them your priority Séan, make sure they know you're there for them. I think I remember you saying you've never bad mouthed your ex to them or anyone. Mine has constantly projected onto me to deflect from himself. Keep on not doing that because the last thing your kids want to hear is you bad mouthing your ex wife after what you've put her through.

I think the 5 year a**hole is interesting, I'm just over 18mths post TGT, long way to go here!

I wish you luck with your children. Send the odd text to your son, engage if you get the vibe it's ok, respect the distance, he's testing you a little too, showing him you're still there and interested will help in the long run. You could say you saw or thought of something today and thought of him, just to let him know he's in your mind!
 

Last edited by Foolme (June 28, 2017 7:04 am)

Thank you for that helpful post. I wish you and your family the best of luck going forward. I'm struck by how my own experience mirrors that of other gay (or gay-in-denial) husbands with kids. This suggests a common pattern. For example, both you and JK wrote about:

​1. Husbands neglecting or even ignoring children post break-up.
​2. New love interests (puppy love perhaps).
​3. Extreme sensitivity.
​4. Projecting and gaslighting.

​During the dying days of my marriage, I was a self-centred, screen-porn-and-sex addict. If a gay man is constantly on his phone, I tend to think he's chatting to arrange hook ups via sex apps like Grindr, Scruff, or Hornet. To all the straight wives reading this, straight men aren't "curious" about chatting online (or via smartphone) with gay men. I know from experience that they're trolling for sex. And contrary to what most people think, no one is "lured" into a gay sexual encounter. Unless your 'curious' husband looks like a 20-something underwear model or is spectacularly well-endowed, he can't just go online and get sex within minutes. That's a myth. It takes A LOT of time and effort for a portly, 40ish, balding closeted dad to find a hook up. That's why he's spending hours and hours online. He's negotiating.

​But getting back to my point, I too have followed the same pattern as JK and Foolme's ex-husbands. I was very self-centred near the end of my marriage. I too was constantly on screens. I was largely uninterested and uninvolved with my kids post separation. It was wierdly like a form of parental amnesia. I was out, no longer needed their mom, and in some way I guess I no longer needed them to maintain the false image of being a straight dad. Near the end of my relationship, my (then) wife would constantly say, "It's like you're angry with me." I was. As I started to crack open the closet, I hated my life, my wife, and sadly my children. It was so cruel and unfair to them. They deserved better.

​I've learned a lot from this forum and I think I'm now ready to rebuild relationships with my three kids. My ex-wife has done an incredible job keeping things together, something I now understand from reading your posts. While I'd completely checked out of their lives, she held it all together. I couldn't have done that. I think I now understand the damage I've inflicted on all of them. I've apologized to their mom but not to the kids. So I'll make a point of apologizing to the three of them, hopefully as a start to rebuilding my relationships with them. But I understand that I have to proceed at their pace, not mine.

  

Last edited by Séan (June 28, 2017 8:11 am)

Thank you both for your kind posts. I apologize Phoenix for missing your last post and questions. In reply:

1. I want a real, earth-shattering, honest, tearful apology.  I want her to tell me exactly how much she regrets what she did to me and that it's the worst thing she's ever done and she would do anything to go back and fix it.  And, because she is still with the person she had an affair with and left me for, I want her to remove that toxic devil from her life and from my kids lives..  I don't want restoration, but I want reconciliation.  I want her to make an effort.   That would help me move on, heal, make me feel like I matter.    I suspect my desires are similar to most str8 spouses..  so Sean, what do you think that says about what she would like from you?​

Guilty as charged. I'm still with the person I had an affair with while we were married. But he's a good man from a wonderful family, far from a toxic devil. With regards to an apology, as I've shared in previous posts, I made a very sincere and heartfelt apology by reading her a letter during couples therapy. I owned everything, apologized, we cried, hugged, and then drove home separately. During the apology I was so emotional that my voice sounded very different and even gave out several times. So yes I made a very sincere and heartfelt apology both during counseling, twice in person, and a few more times via sporadic emails.

2. Why are you not willing to trigger [your ex-wife's] emotion[s]?  If you want to help her heal and re-establish any kind of amicable relationship there will be emotion.. but that emotion is a necessary part of the process.  If you try to avoid it, you won't really reach her.  I'm sorry if that feels uncomfortable.

I guess what I should of written was that I don't want to fall back into husband & wife roles. As a recovering narcissist, I also want to avoid provoking strong emotions because I used to thrive on this kind of emotional abuse. I now avoid it, to a point that I may come across as cold perhaps. My feeling is that we're now divorced and as such are no longer responsible for each other's emotional needs. It's very hard watching any woman cry and even harder watching my ex-wife and the mother of my children cry...particularly about a situation I created. I agree that feelings are healthy and should be expressed. What I was trying to express (and perhaps failing) was my desire to have a more business-like relationship with her with regards to co-parenting. When I see her, I don't want her to talk to me like I'm still her husband and confidant. I hope that makes sense.

​Thanks again for posting friends. I've learned a lot from what you shared.
  

"I understand what you are saying about not wanting to provoke her to tears and to make things more business-like.  But, I wonder.. Should you still be trying to manipulate her emotions at this stage?"

​That's a very good question. I don't think I'm trying to manipulate her emotionally but as a recovering narc, I'm the worst judge of something like that. So I'll just provide the facts. For the past six months, we've only been in contact via text. I needed space and think perhaps she did too. As a rule, I keep my texts short, neutral, and only about the kids and/or child support. We've spoken maybe half a dozen times via telephone since Christmas. Recently, we've had a bit more contact during two recent exchanges at her house. I only talk about the kids when we meet. The last two times we've met for a play date with my youngest, I asked, "So how are the kids?" and then heard a little about the kids, lots of stories about deaths (a dog and someone's husband), followed by tears. Clearly there is still a lot of pain there and I fear that I'm triggering her. I didn't know how to react so I just kept saying, "I'm sorry to hear that. How can I help?"
 

Sean,  I'm working through very similar issues, with my ex.  I will tell you that your very well-intentioned "I'm sorry to hear that.  How can I help?" made me angry.  I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings, but your having been GID with her is the cause of this pain.  You cannot help her.  If my ex were to say, "How can I help?", I would want to lash out at him.  It feels extremely patronizing and demeaning.  He caused all of this pain.  I have to do the work needed for recovery.  He gets no credit for my recovery.

I believe that your intent is admirable, but perhaps unhealthy.  I know you know this, but you have known that you were gay for decades.  She has only known for a few years.  Healing from that shock and the ramifications of finding out that your entire marriage was not what you thought...that will take years and years, I believe.  The healing of your children may take years and years, too.  Your wife is not only dealing with her own healing, but also dealing with trying to help your children find healing.

Right now, there is only one thing my ex can do:  He can work on being a good father.  That's all.  He does not get to presume that he is helping me, in any way.  He is not.  He can try his darndest to become a good dad.  That's where he can help.

I am not at a stage where I can speak with my ex, yet.  We communicate through text and email, mostly.  There have been a couple of times where speaking was absolutely necessary.  I mentioned that the idea of "co-parenting" is not working for us.  He is Dad.  I am Mom.  I no longer consider us "parents", as a single unit.  Every once in awhile, I wonder if that might change, in the future.  I don't know, yet.  That's too far down the road for me to consider.  For now, I'm just focusing on trying to make ends meet, while raising emotionally healthy children.

Last edited by jkpeace (June 29, 2017 10:50 am)