It turns out, as I learn more, there's been a progression. About 15 yrs ago, he started soliciting women online and meeting them. Then he started experimenting with cross dressers. And for the last few years, he's been talking with men. I thought it was relevant that he went from women to girly men to men. There have also been some cheating issues in our marriage with women. Let me explain. I found emails written that were very flirtatious and inappropriate with 2 women. They were not physical it was just flirting (they weren't local women). We went to counseling, I told him it was betrayal and not allowed. He also communicated with one woman and talked very sexually explicit. They did meet once on a work trip. They both swear there was no sex, just a lot of PG-13 touching. Their stories are consistent so I believed them. Meanwhile, he was still soliciting men online. He was still having sex with men. It's almost as if he was trying to convince himself that he's still attracted to women? Thoughts? It's just confusing to me....

Thank you for writing JenS and there is absolutely no need to apologize for asking questions. This thread is 35 pages long! You wrote: 

1. If a man is really, really into hard core gay porn in a big way, but says he's straight, does he KNOW that he's actually gay, or is he mentally ill?  I still struggle with this.  

People suffering from severe porn addiction may develop something called HOCD ("homosexual obsessive compulsive disorder"). I should stress that HOCD has yet to undergo any real scientific study, so it remains a bit of an urban myth. Porn addiction has the same neurochemical affect on the brain as cocaine or meth. This means that porn can be as addictive or even more addictive than some drugs. And like a drug addict needing ever increasing amounts of his/her drug, the porn addict needs more extreme forms of porn to feel sexually stimulated. This can often result in a straight man watching gay porn to get his "high" so to speak. So yes there are straight porn addicts who've watched so much straight porn that only bondage, violent, or gay porn can now stimulate them. Here is some additional information about HOCD http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/book/export/html/378. BUT the HOCD porn addict rarely makes the jump from virtual sex to having real sex with men. So while some long-term porn addicts may dabble in gay porn, it doesn't necessarily drive them to start hooking up with men on Craigslist for example. A gay-in-denial husband who claims "porn made me do it" is asking you to believe that everyone playing video games will eventually participate in a mass shooting. My point is that in order for a man to have sex with other men, with or without porn, there already has to be some hard-wired same sexual attraction. This leads me to my next point.   

2. I think if I understood how his mind worked, it would be easier to deal with him (know thy enemy and all that).   

I agree. Many straight wives would describe their gays husbands as a: cheater; manipulator; liar; abuser; narcissist; and gay (or gay-in-denial). Caution: being gay doesn't change a person's nature...hiding our true sexuality is what warps us. Too many gay-in-denial husbands blame their behaviour on the gay thing, alcohol, porn, or childhood abuse. They simply can't own up to being gay, apologize, and accept the consequences. Being gay is not an excuse, nor is it a kind of relationship reset button. Gay-in-denial husbands often distract their straight spouses. How? They say they're gay "because of..." rather than honesty sharing they were born gay. They manipulate their wives with the false hope that a broken marriage can be fixed. But I'd caution all straight wives who are actively overlooking the gay thing. Even if you take "gay" out of my list, you're still married to a cheater, manipulator, liar, abuser, and a narcissist. The question is: don't you deserve better?

​I hope that helps in some way JenS. Please write again if I haven't answered your question.

Last edited by Séan (February 27, 2017 12:10 pm)

From a recent post by a new member named mlfroc2017:

"I am recently divorced from my ex-husband of 7 years (romantic relationship for 10 years & friendship for 17 years) who I believe is gay. He denies all evidence I’ve found online (posting to a blog for advice (name, age, # years married, no kids & signature line match), Craigslist post trolling for sex with men at a strip club, openly flirting with a gay man at NYE, kissing a guy in college over Truth or Dare) and has been with another woman (one of many affairs during our marriage) since before he even said he wanted a divorce. I have reason to also suspect that he had affairs with male co-workers during our marriage....What prompted him asking for the divorce was the woman he had an affair with got a divorce (her husband left her when he learned of their affair over 1 year prior) and went running to him. He has also denied having an affair with her and said he was able to get with her so quickly after saying divorce because our marriage had been over to him for awhile. Although I try very hard to not look up any information about him (I do not have social media), I am struggling with his continued relationship with her and how it seems that the longer he stays with her the more my truth of this gets diminished and nullified. I so so badly wish for what so many other straight spouses got - the admission. I struggle with why he gets to be happy when I still struggle in being alone and unwanted everyday...I logically understand and accept the reality of who he is (gay narcissist abuser), emotionally it is much harder because I was genuinely and blindly happy. Being alone is and isn’t a struggle. I enjoy parts of being alone and I sometimes struggle with feeling that I must have done something wrong to be left by him for her (an immoral woman who many people say is not my equal) and why God has put me in this and keeps dragging me through it without any peace and what I need 1) an admission or 2) some hope to find true real love in a relationship with a man.  Any support is greatly appreciated."

​I want to thank mlfroc2017​ for sharing so openly and honestly. That took a lot of courage. I also want to say how sorry I am that she's struggling. She deserves better...all straight wives and ex-wives do. She mentioned being a psychologist. While I don't have her professional training, I'm happy to provide my insight as a gay ex-husband who was also in denial. A book that changed my life is entitled, "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. I highly recommend the book because it taught me simple techniques to accept life on life's terms. It taught me that all of my problems stemmed from my inability to accept reality.

Sadly, circumstances force straight spouses like mlfroc2017 to deny the reality that their husbands are gay. This is understandable because why would a gay man choose to marry a woman? I now firmly believe that once the straight wife starts snooping, in her heart she knows her husband is gay and that the marriage is over. After all, this is why the straight spouse is playing detective because she's looking for proof. She eventually finds overwhelming evidence and may confront him. But at this stage both spouses still want the relationship. The reality, gay men can't stay married to straight women, clashes with what they both want: he wants cover and she wants a loving husband. So they continue on in a state of denial. This is why the gay husband denies all proof and she starts to ask whether he's bisexual, rather than gay. She may also start exploring whether a mixed orientation marriage, which simply means a gay/straight marriage, can work and might even join several forums to 'make it work.' Both spouses get caught up in denial because they're not yet ready to accept the end of their marriage. I've done this. Although I should add that mlfroc2017​ and her husband divorced and rather quickly from what I gather. 

​So what's my point? I don't think either spouse can truly heal and be happy until we fully embrace reality. Two things in mlfroc2017​'s post struck me. She wrote: "I logically understand and accept the reality of who he is (gay narcissist abuser), emotionally it is much harder because I was genuinely and blindly happy." In another post she shared: "And there is no question in my mind that the entire past and relationship we had was a farce. I was a beard and best attempt for him to convince his rural Pennsylvania friends and family and himself that he wasn't gay. Looking back how we began dating was even weird for mid 20's. Who asks a girl to be their girlfriend via long distance without ever kissing or sleeping with her?!" This is very brave of her because in just 24 hours she's gone from describing the myth of a blindingly happy relationship in her first post to providing facts in the second post. She's making incredible progress in a very short period of time.

​Based on my own experience and also based upon what I've read here, most gay/straight relationships were broken, dysfunctional, and abusive long before "the secret" is revealed. Why? Because a narcissist/empath relationship is a one-way street. Just one person counts in these relationships: the narcissist. As long as the narc gets what he wants, it works. However, when the empath or co-dependent (straight) spouse tries to set boundaries, have intimacy, or get attention, the narc explodes and plays the victim. I did this and most gay-in-denial husbands follow a similar path. Add to that a gay-in-denial narcissist, and it's highly unlikely it was a happy and healthy relationship. Normally these relationships are explosive, sexless, and highly abusive before the gay thing is even an issue. I've often read posts along the lines of, "Yes he lied, cheated, manipulated me, and he's verbally abusive...​but I still love him deeply." So denial often infects both spouses. Now getting back to mlfroc2017's post.

​Later mlfroc2017 wrote: "Although I try very hard to not look up any information about him (I do not have social media), I am struggling​..."   With regards to the comments about social media, I'd have an easier time reading, "I find myself cyber-stalking him and his new wife." We've all done it but spending hours cyber stalking can slow down the healing process. She's provided a number of personal details about his new wife and children so I think she's spent more time playing detective online than she'd like to admit. It's part of the process but it shouldn't become obsessive. 

Let me come to the point because I don't want mlfroc2017 or any other members to think I'm criticizing her. I'm not. The only thing I'm attacking here is denial because I want to show that both the gay and straight spouse go through periods of denial. In fact, the gay spouse may get stuck in it. ​mlfroc2017 shared that she needs an admission. Her ex-husband is with another woman yet I believe she wants him to admit he's gay. The reality is she won't ever get the truth from a black-belt liar and narcissist. Nor is she going to find solace among his friends and family who are all likely enablers. Gay-in-denial men simply don't believe they are gay. They don't. They can look you in the eye and say that countless Craigslist hookups were "meaningless" because they truly don't believe they are attracted to men. I've read that gay men like me often know our sexual orientation starting around age 5 or 6. This was my experience. Practice makes perfect and imagine a man, like me, spending 30+ years perfecting his ability to deny and hide being gay. Imagine a man who would go so far as to marry a woman and pretend for years he likes having sex with women, simply to hide the fact that he's gay. This man isn't likely to tell the truth because he's so deep in denial. And he's even less likely to tell the truth now that he's married to another woman.

The reality is that mlfroc2017​ won't ever get an admission, particularly now that he's married yet another woman. I recommend she accept reality because he'll remain gay-in-denial until his dying breath. Holding on to the hope that he'll one day speak the truth is like holding on to the hope that a gay husband will someone become straight. It's never going to happen. It's time to stop hoping, stop cyber stalking, and start living without him.

mlfroc2017 if you're reading this, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings. That wasn't my intent. If I have, just let me know and I'll take down this post immediately. If this post stays up, I hope it helps in some way my friends.

Last edited by Séan (March 1, 2017 10:14 am)

Jens,
Don't feel bad..I don't know how I'll ever trust again either.. I joke that the only straight woman I know are my sister and the woman on this forum.  Everyone else must be gay..because I have such poor judgement... a broken gaydar they call it here.
I honestly don't know what I will do...for now alone is safest. I will say to all the woman here though..if you put a gun to my head I would not like guys, look at gay porn or look on craigslist.

Rob, 

"Gaydar"?  LOL I needed that! first giggle I've had all week.