Thanks for sharing lostdad and many thanks to you for helping manage this forum as an administrator. I can understand your anger and frustration. Being lied to for so long by people we love is soul-destroying. I have a question: how are things with your ex-wife now? Is it getting better? What you wrote here struck me:

"She would hide her phone, change her passwords, change the notifications on her phone screen, only check messages when I wasn't in the room, etc...why do you need to know every detail...?" 

I've often referred to the time shortly after I came out as 'gay adolescence.' It was a time when I acted like a sex-craved teenager, albeit in the body of a 40-year-old man. This may explain the love/hate relationship I had with my wife at the time which, come to think of it, resembled the relationship between an angry teen son and his mom. It was a kind of, 'I hate you now give me money to go the mall' relationship. I have a theory about 'gay adolescence.' I never truly went through puberty as a gay male because I pretended to be straight in my teens. However, once I came out to myself and my (then) wife, the floodgates opened. 

Unfortunately, it's much too easy to find casual sex in the gay male world. It would be like me dropping my teen son off at the candy store and expecting him to learn good nutrition. At first I wrongly thought casual sugar-high hookups with other men were intimacy. Man was I wrong and tragically I fell in love with EVERYONE I hooked up with. My gay adolescence lasted about two years and it was a whirlwind of casual sex, gay saunas, and a teen-like romance of sorts. I was a kid in a candy store really...but I eventually grew sick of it. In one of my worst teen-like episodes, I remember agonizing over a text from a former lover because it didn't have an exclamation point. How pathetic. I was the emotional equivalent of a 12-year-old girl and I neglected my (then) wife and three children during this time because I was even more withdrawn, hostile, and self-centred. I regret it all. This seems to be what lostdad and others have described in their recent posts.   

​I'm now through the worst of gay adolescence and am in a long-term monogamous relationship. But I could only live authentically after coming out to myself, coming out to my ex-wife, coming out to my friends and family. I then apologized to her, apologized to my kids, separated, and divorced. Thankfully our divorce was quick and amicable. Early on in my journey, I was very lucky to become friends with gay men my age who were in long-term, stable relationships. I firmly believe that remaining in the closet or staying married to a straight woman would have meant a lifetime of guilt, shame and secrecy about being gay. This would have also trapped my wife and children in my emotional muck. Gay-in-denial men get stuck in a world of Craigs List or short-term secretive relationships. They're trapped in the emotional equivalent of a McDonald's Drive Thru. Broken attracts broken in my opinion. If I'm emotionally broken and keeping secrets, I'd only attract men like me while emotionally abusing my wife. This is why I firmly believe separation and divorce is the only way out of a gay/straight marriage. 

Trying to maintain the fiction of a gay/straight marriage ruins everyone's lives. For example, I've read a number of threads here where straight wives describe their husbands having a lifelong 'friend' they know is a lover. It's a "Brokeback Mountain" situation with two married men (or women) having a long-term secretive affair while pretending to be straight. I have a very close friend who had an eight-year affair with another married man. Like attracts like. They eventually broke up, but not before inflicting a great deal of emotional damage on their wives, children and each other. Whether gay or straight, affairs are rocky because the relationship is built on lies, secrecy, and shame. Add to an affair a gay-in-denial husband with another gay-in-denial husband, and it's the emotional equivalent of two blind men trying to drive across the country.   

I'm rambling again so I'll come to the point. Staying with a gay-in-denial husband creates a teen mom (the straight wife) vs. angry son (they gay husband) dynamic. He'll forever remain stuck in gay adolescence. This means he'll love/hate you while keeping secrets, hiding texts, all the while hooking up on the side. The lying and cheating causes even more shame, resulting in even deeper narcissism to cope, and soon the couple is in a spiral of lies, cheating, shame, and emotional abuse. The only way out is separation and divorce. As lostdad and others have shared, it's emotionally exhausting because the straight spouse deserves love, honesty, kindness, and intimacy. My wife deserved more than an angry, cheating, adolescent husband addicted to gay porn. As so many have shared here, it's madness to stay in a sexless relationship with a gay-in-denial narcissist. What does the straight spouse get out of the relationship? The only way my wife could heal was away from me and my emotional abuse. Years or even decades spent in a toxic gay/straight relationship can never result in a happily ever after. We all know it and this forum is to help everyone accept the truth: gay/straight marriages just don't work.

​I hope that helps in some small way my friends.  

Last edited by Séan (February 3, 2017 2:18 pm)

Sean,

Just to be clear.  Is there anything a woman can do in the bedroom for a gay man that will sustain a long term monogamous sexual relationship?

Thanks

Thank you Ruby, JK, and Rob for posting. In response to Ruby's question:

"Is there anything a woman can do in the bedroom for a gay man that will sustain a long term monogamous sexual relationship?" In my experience, the answer is no. I agree with what JK wrote and, like JK, it might help to answer your question with another question: ​

"Ruby, is there anything a lesbian woman could do for you (a straight woman) in the bedroom that would sustain a long term monogamous sexual relationship between the two of you?" 

The answer is likely no. I can't see how a relationship can last with one partner attracted to the same sex, and the other attracted to the opposite sex. This forum is full of posts written by straight spouses who bravely tried everything in the bedroom to please their gay spouses. While this may have improved things temporarily, over time the gay spouse went back to watching gay porn, having affairs, or boldly asking for threesomes with a same-sex partner.

​So no I don't believe there is anything a straight wife can do long term to keep a gay husband sexually interested in her. I believe intimacy is much more than just the mechanics of sex. I believe a spouse wants, needs, and deserves to feel desired by their partner. And no amount of conversion therapy, sex toys, nor bedroom gymnastics can change the simple fact that a gay man is attracted to men and not women.

​I hope that isn't too harsh Ruby and that I've answered your question. 

Last edited by Séan (February 6, 2017 3:27 am)

Thank you for writing KK. You're not being "needy" nor "confused" by asking questions. You're just being yourself: a kind, caring, and honest person. Your husband is needy and confused, not you. So please feel free to write/share here as much as you want. You're among friends. What you've described sounds very much like the confusion all straight spouses feel when living with gay-in-denial narcissists. If I'm reading what you shared correctly, the situation is as follows:

1. Denial: "My husband is denying that he was ever really interested in men, claiming it was just a folly and he can't be gay because he 'didn't do anything'."
​
2. Blame:  "...its a mix of the cold shoulder and derogatory comments about how 'all you (me) want is a roommate', silent fuming, open rage and a random selection of unrelated transgressions to accuse/grill me about.

3. Gaslighting (defined as "manipulating (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity"): "He's behaving so angrily about the idea of not having sex with me...I feel so sure that he doesn't want me physically, but he seems so frustrated and angry one moment, and otherwise fine in another moment, and back again. He says the switching back and forth is because he 'forgets that he isn't allowed to be himself' and then gets angry when he remembers."

4. Confusion/Fear: "I just don't know what to do...How can I be sure one way or the other? I feel bullied about the sex thing and it makes me want to withdraw even more. After our last session he was so angry that I was afraid of his retaliation, not violent but just...angry and hostile and unpredictable. I hate feeling like this. I'm sorry to be so needy and confused but I have no one else to talk to, as you all well know."

The feelings you've described KK, the fear, confusion, and bullying, sound a lot like emotional/physical abuse. Putting aside the gay thing for a moment, your marriage is clearly in trouble. Your husband is struggling, you are trying to help him, and rather than acknowledge and appreciate your loving support, he's using you as an emotional punching bag. That's not right.

​Given what you've written, I'm inclined to think your husband is throwing an adult temper tantrum because he's not getting what he wants. He doesn't want to go to counselling because there is a big, scary doctor questioning his ridiculous child-like behaviour. He wants to bail on counselling because the counsellor is 'taking your side' by calling bullsh*t on his excuses and questioning his sexuality. This makes him very uncomfortable so he's taking it out on you. It's the classic response of a narcissist. Narcs always see themselves as victims, even while being the aggressor. A perfect example would be your sex life. Let's look at the reality. You want to have sex with your husband which is normal and healthy. Your husband isn't interested in sex because he's a gay man. You've asked him why he isn't interested in sex and suggested counselling to work through your issues. Everything thing you've done is kind, caring, and honest. In his twisted narc logic, he gets to deny having sex with you, blames you for it, refuses counselling to address it, feels persecuted, and is now so angry you can't even discuss it. That's complete bullsh*t.

​So what now? KK it's time to take a short break and stop trying to glue the pieces of your Humpty Dumpty of a husband back together again. He's broken, angry, and abusive. Let's focus on you. First, I'd suggest you continue going to counselling, without your husband. Second, I'd urge you to reach out to the local chapter of Straight Spouses, make contact, and perhaps attend a meeting or find someone to talk to. Third, you should also reach out via private messages to some long-term members and perhaps have a phone call to share your problems. You are in a very toxic and potentially dangerous relationship. When we're in a burning house, we get outside as quickly as possible or risk going down in flames.  ​I hope that helps. Please keep coming back.

Last edited by Séan (February 6, 2017 3:04 am)

Thanks for sharing Vicky & Jen. The gay-in-denial husband is often a narcissist. And narcissism is like a form of toxic self-centredness that both gay and straight people use as a coping mechanism for shame. I know from experience because I am a recovering narcissist. Narcissists are attracted to kind, compassionate, and selfless partners who are often referred to as "empaths." JenS shared something important in her last post:

"Then he tried to crush me mentally so I did not get back up to challenge him again, and it escalated into behaviours that (I am embarrassed to say) are physically abusive. Then he started pursuing me for sex very aggressively like a horny teenage boy. I found this very repulsing and it didn't turn me on at all.   But he'd flipped the tables on me because I was rejecting him for sex so I became the frigid one."

Vicky shared something similar:

"Mine got into a cycle of sharing and then regretting sharing which led to all the crazy making.  So he'd want to watch the bi/gay porn, then later he'd say that I had selected the porn then he'd say something like 'I want to watch something with some women in it'.  We went to a male strip club and he said I chose it, I did not!  I'm ashamed to say I started to believe him that I was making up that he has an SSA."

​Narcissists often follow the same relationship patterns:

1. Idealize: this is the 'honeymoon' or 'love bombing' stage of the relationship. It's the fairy tale start.  

2. Devalue: ​This is the conflict, sexless, crazy-making, and blaming stage described by most straight spouses posting here.
​
​3. Discard: ​While this seldom happens with gay/straight marriages, it's when the narc partner has found someone else and now simply dumps their straight spouse; acting as if the relationship had never happened.  

Gay husbands bounce from one stage to the next and back again. This is what confuses straight wives, to a point they question their own sanity. It's what Jen and Vicky have described above. One moment he's 100% gay, watching gay porn during sex for example. Then he tries to hit the reset button. He tries to be straight again by denying he likes the porn or blaming his wife for forcing him to watch it. In my opinion, gay-in-denial narc husbands most fear losing their wives as cover. They've spent their entire lives hiding their true sexuality, to a point that it's become a part of them. So when they fear losing their 'beards' or wives who ensure they still look straight to the outside world, they panic and start doing everything possible to win you back. This includes love bombing you with affection, gifts, attention, or suddenly pursuing you sexually after years of sexual rejection. But make no mistake, once you're back in the relationship, the cycle begins anew and they start devaluating you again. It's cruel and unnecessary.

So what now? I believe Vicky, JK, Kel and many others are excellent examples of how straight wives move on. They all started by getting off their gay-in-denial husband's merry-go-round. When asking the question: "Are you gay?", a straight wife is only going to get spin from her gay husband. Rarely will she get the truth because her gay-in-denial husband is lying to himself and others. He simply doesn't believe he's gay and certainly won't admit it to the only person linking him to a straight existence. An honest person accepts the truth, accepts consequences, apologizes, and tries to make things better. A narcissist lies, denies, blames, and projects. So I believe the first step in healing is for the straight spouse to accept she can't fix nor change her gay husband. She's likely tried for years, if not decades, with little to show for it. She can only fix herself. This means taking a day, week, or month to focus 100% on herself and her own well-being. It means reconnecting with family & friends who love her more than they love her broken marriage. It means going to counselling without him.  It means contacting the Straight Spouse Network (tel: 773-413-8213) to find support groups in your area. It means posting here and perhaps contacting long-term members via private message. Once the straight wife has gained a little distance from her gay husband, only then will she start to see things more clearly.

​I hope that helps my friends. Be well.

Last edited by Séan (February 7, 2017 9:08 am)