Thank you for writing VVPN. In reply: 

1. I like your advice on noticing how I feel after each interaction with her. I have to always keep this in mind. I ignored those feelings during our time together.

This was my experience and I've have similar exchanges with ex-spouses. Quite often the "rose coloured glasses" fall away once the couple decides to separate/divorce. 

2. Around one year after she came out, I started noticing I felt anxious or nervous at times after we met. I wasn't sure if this was a trauma reaction, or due to something she said or the way she behaved, or all of the above. At times my feelings would only come a day after seeing her.

While I'd continue to discuss all of this with your therapist, I would be prepared to see your ex-wife more objectively as you continue to emotionally/physically detach from her. If she isn't already in the rainbow-coloured churn of gay adolescence, please be ready for several years of her acting like a newly out LGBTQ warrior. This might also include introducing one or more short-term "soul-mates" to friends, family, and the kids.   

3. Recently I started sharing less about my life or my emotions and it seems like it has had a good effect on my health. I am lucky I have a good therapist too.

This sounds like the right approach. For me personally, the "friendly but not friends" approach works best with my ex-wife. 

4. Best of luck to you!

And to you as well. Please feel free to come back and share your journey. For every straight spouse posting here, I reckon there are dozens actively following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 17, 2023 3:19 pm)

Butterfly49 wrote:

Hello

I am looking for advice as I think my husband is either gay or bisexual and I feel lost!

 

Thank you for posting although I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. If/when you're ready, please feel free to post as little or a much as you like. I find that I can usually comment when I have some background information. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Rose. In response to your recent post: 

1. Hi, Sean: I have a question about the sexually attracted to men but emotionally attracted to women split.

In previous posts, I've shared a theory that some husbands are emotionally straight and yet sexually gay: meaning they are married to women; no longer have sex with women; enjoy the status of being in a heterosexual relationship; and yet only sleep with men. Psychologist Dr. Alan Downs wrote about a similar form of "splitting" in his excellent book "The Velvet Rage." 

2. While I think it may be genuine for some, I think it is how my still-closeted working-on-having-him be my ex-husband rationalized his behavior.

If I remember correctly, this "behavior" included going to a naked male sauna, getting a naked massage from another man, and ejaculating. When caught, he absurdly claimed he was assaulted and ejaculated as a form of "squid shooting ink" self-defense. He certainly gets points for creativity, but not honesty.  

3. He “loved” me and was doing me a favor by keeping his dirty little secret under wraps. Manipulative bs. He’d be in love with a man if he thought he were allowed to be. But despite all the advances (and I actually like Pride month this year, may help us get somewhere societally; but it was painful a few years ago, when I first realized the depth of my marriage problems) he can’t see that he loves men.

Thank you for sharing the above, although I'm so very sorry you're struggling. Am I right to assume that: 

A. You now consider your husband gay and are no longer questioning his attraction to men? 
B. By writing "ex-husband" you are now planning to divorce? 

Feel free to claify, but only if you want to. 

4. Yes some people are bisexual and some love women, there is a wide range and that is wonderful.

Agreed. However, I want to challenge the idea that hearing "I'm bisexual" from a husband is somehow a positive thing. On the rare occasions when a husband clearly says, "I'm gay" this is of course devastating. But at least there is clarity: he is attracted to men and does not have any attraction to women. In my opinion, hearing "I'm bisexual" in a sexless marriage is perhaps worse because the husband is essentially claiming, "I'm attracted to both sexes but I'm not attracted to you and am choosing to no longer have sex with you." Or worse, he's shifting blame by saying, "Yes I'm still attracted to women but you're too [insert bullsh*t excuse here] so I don't want to have sex with you." 

5. But for me the emotional/sexual split is suspect. A sticky fly paper trap…in my case, a blame-shift maneuver that bears no relation to what actually happened: abuse. Not love. Truism: can’t love anyone if you don’t love yourself. And a closeted gay man does not even like himself. Ouch.

I agree. While closeted, I certainly experienced a lot of anger and self hatred then sadly projected a lot of anger/hatred towards my former wife...something I still regret to this day. 

6. I’m closer to out but still fighting to live in a world that doesn’t feel like an invisible chess match where he has to keep me cornered just to be ok. Again, ouch. Denial is a safety operation, right?

If I recall our former exchanges correctly, I believe you've reached what I consider the final pre-separation/divorce stage of a gay/straight marriage. It's a time when the wife knows her husband is having sex with men, he's more or less openly cheating with men, the couple is no longer sexually active, and there is constant conflict. Is that a fair assessment? If yes, I can only assume that your husband's two worlds are now colliding: his straight identify and gay sexuality are now overlapping and he's essentially losing his mind. 

7. And I am actually on the other side now, a threat.

Agreed. You're a threat for two reasons: first, you know his truth; and second, you can essentially end this charade by choosing to separate/divorce. 

8. I find myself just hoping he finally does fall in love with a man - so that he will leave me alone! And we both can finally come out into the light.

That's very kind of you but a word of caution: it will likely take him years post-divorce to find a long-term (male) partner. Based on our previous exchanges and years of exchanging here, I don't think your husband is going to willingly leave the comfort of your straight marriage. So I reckon it's up to you whether to stay or go. I hope that helps my friend. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 23, 2023 1:09 pm)

Good day Moppy. Thank you for posting. In reply: 

1. Hi Sean!! My husband came out to me in March of this year after years of suspicion and questioning him. We have been married 8 years and have 3 little girls, 7,6, and 2.

Understood. I will assume that he came out as gay, not bisexual, but please feel free to correct me. 

2. When he came out to me, I was flooded with relief and compassion. I initially was able to find the bright side of it all- he claims he never cheated, he seemed forthright about it, he said he came out only because he could see how much pain it was causing me. This allowed me to begin to share our story in a very loving and compassionate way. I told everyone how he didn’t mean to hurt me, that he truly did love me the best that he could, and he’s hurt too.

Got it. I have gay friends who never cheated on their wives, however, they're as rare as unicorns in my community. The most common scenario is a closeted husband who "curiously" uses porn, then "explores" via hook up app chats, then cheats yet gets scared ("I was ATTACKED at the porn shop"), then unapologetically cheats while still married. As you heard in my podcast interviews, the most common signs a husband is cheating with men are: 

- An obsessive interest in fitness and getting pumped (to be "gay ready"). 
- A new look (sexy underwear, new wardrobe, new haircut, and body shaving). 
- Devices on lockdown, lots of "business trips", and he constantly talks about new male friends (usually at the office). 
- Conjugal sex stops because he fears giving his wife an STD/STI. 

3. We knew we would separate, but werent rushing it as we wanted to unpack it all in therapy together.

I'd suggest you try individual counselling. While we've all tried couples counselling "together", it rarely helps the straight spouse. And why? Normally the gay/questioning spouse monopolizes the therapy space with his/her coming out narrative. Then the straight spouse becomes the villian because he/she is painted as not being supportive enough or, worse, as being the abuser in their relationship.  

4. Besides, we were comfortable with our life and wanted to cherish the time we had left as a family. We began flirting with other people and sharing it with each other, like middle school girls. It felt like the most idyllic unfolding of our story and we patted ourselves on the back for it. I immediately found our path and the podcast. I heard each interview with you, and was confused and almost offended by the assertions you were making about GID husbands. I thought we were different and what we had was so beautiful and unique.

Thank you for sharing this my friend. I reckon every couple thinks they are unique, something I call "best divorce EVER!" so I understand your reaction to my interviews.  

5. HOWEVER, I believe the very framework you laid is what gave me the language and perspective to see everything with new eyes. I started to see his tactics. How he would dismiss my requests for him to stay and help with bedtime. Or how he always made me feel like the reason why he went out all the time was because “I just didn’t plan enough with my friends”, but then when I did, he would make up excuses for why it would be inconvenient for me to leave.

This sounds like "detaching with love," perhaps something you can explore in individual counselling. 

6. I started seeing patterns, script flipping, blame shifting, never apologizing or owning up to when he wronged me. At first I thought “this must be the gay adolescents”, but as I am reflecting, I’m finding these patterns existed the whole time.

I'm sorry he's been treating you like this. 

7. I now am in the dumbfounded stage because even in his coming out, he was able to control the narrative and put it all on me.

Yep. 

8. After coming out, he said I can choose what happens with us (again, putting it all on me- so he could say ‘well this is what she wanted’.) When I express how hard it’s been, he says imagine being him. Or that I should be thankful he didn’t cheat. (Also- I am now wondering if he did cheat. I have no proof either way but also no reason to believe him.)

This sounds like blame shifting. As for cheating, based on my time here I'd estimate that less than 5% of closeted husbands never cheated before separation/divorce. But 100% of them use gay porn, chats, or camming with other men to "safely" explore their homosexuality while married. 

9. When I say I don’t feel like he’s truly apologized for the pain he’s caused, instead of apologizing, he says no matter what I just don’t accept his apologies.

A complete inability to apologize, always portraying himself as the victim, and constantly dismissing other's feelings do suggest a form of personality disorder. This is perhaps something you should unpack with a qualified therapist.  

10. Throughout our entire marriage he made decisions that made me uncomfortable (staying out really late, going to gay bars, going on trips that he would claim were for work but really they weren’t and I knew it) and I would express how I felt. Nothing changed. 

I'd like to know more about these "work trips" if you don't mind sharing about it. If it was with his male "office bestie" then I'd call it "out-of-town-cheating."

11. He will go from exploding in anger toward me, to our next interaction acting totally normal and chatty, and is confused why I’m still distant.

We're moving into emotional abuse territory here. 

12. I guess my question is, is it either/or? Were all of the things I thought about him completely untrue and he’s been a narcissist this entire time? Or can it be both? Can he be a kind, loving, empathetic person at his core, but acting out because of the situation he’s in? I realized the relief I felt was only present because of the years of pain I endured.

I'm not a mental health professional so I'd urge you to discuss all of this with a qualified therapist. As for "acting out because of the situation he's in..." this sounds a bit like an abuser claiming, "I only hit my wife because my father hit me as a child. I'm the real victim here!" While that's an extreme example, I'd be ready to see your husband and his behaviours in a more objective light as you move towards separation/divorce. So what's my point? There is often a post-glow honeymoon period after a husband discloses an attraction to men with his wife. In my experience, it only lasts about three months which seems to fit your own timeline. For a brief period following "discovery", she feels validated, seen, and she enjoys the attention from a husband who has often been emotionally distant for their entire relationship. In my opinion, I think deep down most straight spouses hold on to the hope that, "Well if I'm loving and supportive, he'll come back to me and our marriage...and forget all of this gay crap." This is particularly true in deeply religious or Evangelical communities because the script there is normally that being gay is more of a mental disorder that can be prayed away.  

13. I am ready to get the ball rolling with the separating, but he doesn’t even respond when I bring any aspect of it up. It’s bizarre. I’m assuming he’s just so comfortable in his nice heterosexual life with a wife that will do it all while he can explore the gay side safely.

100% agree. 

14. It feels very unfair. I’ve suggested he go stay somewhere else multiple times and he just doesn’t…

Few gay/questioning husbands just leave their comfortable nests. And why? Most straight spouses do everything for them so he has everything to lose by living on his own. If your husband was raised in an Evangelical church and/or you live in a deeply conservative city/state, then he is likely scared of separation/divorce becase he's terrified of being completely out. The most common scenario is the straight spouse kicks him out...simply because he won't leave and/or he's cheating so brazenly that she has no other choice but to end the marriage.   

15. One last thing-in 2017, he did have a relationship with a man. He made it seem completely abusive- a power dynamic between our worship pastor at our church and him. It lasted 3 months. He never admitted to having gay feelings even after that.  After hearing from you that this is another tactic, it’s hard to know where the line is of consent. I never wanted to victim blame, but after that, I never trusted him again and questioned him up until he finally came out this year.

Please define "relationship." While I don't have a lot of information here, I'm going to assume this was his first gay relationship and, like most first gay relationships between two deeply closeted men, it ended rather spectacularly (cue deafening choir music complete with organ blasting away). As you might have heard in my podcast interviews, these "Brokeback Mountain" relationships are common in both conservative states and among deeply religious communities. Closeted gay men initially seek to "pray away" their "same sex attraction", then bond with other gay men in religious communities, then inevitably a physical/sexual relationship starts. They consider these relationships somehow safe and acceptable because of the religious link; meaning having sex with another self-hating "Godly" man is somehow better than with some raging homosexual. Most importantly, both men take solace in knowing the other can't disclose the relationship...it's a kind of "mutually assured destruction clause." If I were a betting man, I reckon he demonized the other guy as a f*cked up form of insurance policy. By painting him as an abuser, he was setting the stage to discredit anything this man might tell you (the wife) following their break up. So if his former partner outed him or otherwise got in touch with you, he could then just claim, "Well he's crazy..." or make up any other kind of excuse. Again this is speculation but please feel free to share more about their relationship.         

16. Thanks for all of this! You are helping so many people process this and I commend you for it.

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I myself was also a cheater and emotionally abused my former wife. Feel free to reply to my answers and/or share more. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 24, 2023 1:51 am)

Thank you for writing Moppy. In reply: 

1. He did come out as fully gay, not bi. And in that, I was so grateful because he “didn’t lie to me”. I commended him for his honesty and not prolonging the pain.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't think he deserves the medal of freedom just yet...particularly given the details you shared below. 

2. All of these things ring true: An obsessive interest in fitness and getting pumped (to be "gay ready"). He got a lot bigger and gym obsessed this past year. Conjugal sex stops because he fears giving his wife an STD/STI. We last had sex in October and even then it was very sparse and robotic. And if we didn’t, he blamed his performance anxiety.

Closeted/questioning husbands can blabber away all they want, but there is no lying in the bedroom. A gay husband avoids sex with his wife, often starting with their honeymoon, because he simply isn't attracted to women. 

3. In regards to the work trips, up until this year, we worked together as a photo/video team, primarily in weddings. But he would find reasons to go travel to other states for videos  work without me. And instead of bringing me along, he would bring a friend along instead. Sometimes the friend would differ but he always had someone come with him for assistance.

I assume it was always a male "friend" but feel free to clarify. 

4. In the past year, he has gone on many trips with one friend in particular that’s gay. And really for no reason. He used to make it seem like he had promising photo/video work with this guy’s company, but doesn’t even pretend that anymore. He also went on many camping trips with individual guys throughout the years. Never in groups….This is why I was certain that he had already cheated on me.

100% agree with you. 

5. By the time he came out, I was basically demanding answers on a weekly basis. So when he came out, but said he never cheated, I thought “wow he’s so honorable after all. And the fact that he’s gay explains all of the confusion, but maybe he was never cheating and was just getting close.”

He's lying. 

6. Yes, we both grew up in intensely conservative evangelical homes which is another reason why I was like “this totally makes sense I have complete empathy for this situation.”

This explains his out of town cheating and denial that he's stepped out on your marriage. 

7. The relationship with the worship pastor was sexual.

Ok. So by his own admission, he's been cheating with men since 2017. 

8. When he first told me, he said the first time wasn’t his fault, but every time after it was his fault. But upon further explanation I was like “I think this is abuse.” The guy that he did it with definitely seems to have a personality disorder (I myself diagnosed him with sociopathy) and he had complete control over the church.

Red flags galore. As you heard in my podcast interviews, when the closeted husband gets caught cheating he often claims "I was r*ped." If your husband has a history of lying about his sexuality, which to me seems more than evident given what you've shared, he's more than capable of manipulating the narrative by fabricating/exaggerating this whole story. And given your post above, you seem to be parroting the following narrative: your husband is the victim and the pastor was apparently the aggressor...and likely a sociopath. What gives me pause is "every time after" because this suggests they had an ongoing sexual relationship. I'd be interested to learn more about how he disclosed all of this to you. Sexual assault between an adult and minor is easy to understand because the adult is assumed to have all the power in the relationship and, in the case of much younger children, the adult is physically able to overpower his/her victim. When two males are roughly the same age, the same size, the same status, and are of an age to understand/give consent, the more likely scenario is as follows: this was a first consensual same-sex experience; one or both of the men panic; and they're so disgusted with themselves they paint it as non-consensual sex. 

8. I heard of different non-sexual abuse stories happening from many others. So it made sense that my husband’s relationship was also abusive. Now I just don’t know.

Nor do I. If over the years your husband has demonstrated a complete inability to be honest with you about his homosexuality, then I think you can apply the same honesty standard to his claim of "our pastor r*ped me."  

9. My next question is how were you as a parent during all of this? I always thought he at least put our children first, but now I of course don’t believe that’s true.

I was a very hands-on, active, and loving parent to my children until I started gay adolescence. Then I went completely "boy crazy." The year before separation/divorce and for two years after I all but abandoned my kids because I had all the maturity of a 13-year-old gay K-Pop fan. I don't want to alarm you, but even young children know when something isn't right between their parents. A toxic marriage is a lot like second-hand smoke, it gets into everything and everyone. As for my kids, I've since come out and apologized to them many times. They have forgiven me and I'm now more present in their lives.

I hope that answered your questions but please feel free to write again. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 24, 2023 3:31 pm)