Thank you for writing vppn. In response to your questions: 

1. In the [Our Path podcast] interviews you called yourself a narcissist, but I find it so hard for someone with the condition to be able to speak about your experience the way you do (in a very compassionate way). It took my ex-wife more than a year to apologize, and in a very limited way. She initially blamed everything on institutionalized homophobia. It made me feel like she did not see how she was hurting me.

Always seeing yourself as a victim, raging against "the man" or "them", while also being unable to acknowledge other's feelings nor apologize are quite common among people with personality disorders. 

2. She was only able to discuss our past very briefly, later on, a few times, and then asked me to move on (always accusing me of showing resentment).

While I don't have a lot of information here, I'd suggest discussing all of this with a mental health professional who specializes in personality disorders. In my unprofessional opinion, her inability to acknowledge any wrongdoing while minimizing or shifting blame strongly suggest some form of personality disorder.  

3. If someone has narcissistic traits, usually they are present in many areas of their lives not just in the closeted relationship. Do you see this in yourself? Or in your life it was all related to the closeted life? 

I'm not sure if I understand this question but I'll do my best to answer. As I discussed in my podcast interviews, I think I suffered from a form of gay-in-denial narcissism. And like many narcissists, I spent most of my time "playing" a role as if I were on stage. You shared something similar: 

I have always noticed how she treated me differently, closer and better when we were with her parents.

This speaks to me. Closeted me acted like the best husband and father when I was around friends, family, or while in social situations. But when we were alone, I'd emotionally abuse my former wife and totally reject her in the bedroom. All of my time and energy went into maintaining my straight existence, but once I'd come out of the closet, separated, and divorced, I no longer needed my ex-wife and children so I discarded them...for a time. 

4. Were you able to have emotional intimacy with your ex? I felt that after our early stages and particularly after marriage my relationship was not emotionally intimate. We said I love you and called ourselves spouses and best friends, but I did not feel we had a vulnerable, transparent relationship.

For me personally, I can't have an emotionally intimate relationship while hiding my true sexuality from a spouse/partner. Again while I don't have a lot of information, from what I understand most personality disordered people are capable of love bombing potential partners, only to neglect them once they're in a long-term relationship. So no, I didn't have an emotionally intimate relationship with my ex-wife. 

5. I am trying to assess how close I can remain to her.

Excellent question. I'd suggest paying close attention to how you feel around her. If she does have a form of personality disorder, you'll likely feel confused, disoriented, and generally worse about yourself after each interaction. She'll spend a lot of time making herself out to be victim whilst everything is always your fault. A personality disordered person spends most of their time trying to "win" every interaction, often by gaslighting, distorting facts, and/or shifting blame on to you and others. 

6. I have been doing this mostly for the kids. I have to acknowledge she helped me a lot during a major medical emergency.

You should determine whether she helped you because she genuinely cared about you or whether she was playing a role. A personality disordered person would play the perfect nurse/caregiver in such a situation because failing to do so would risk dissaproval or rejection from friends and family. So what now? I would discuss all of this with a qualified mental health professional. I'd also play close attention to how your ex-wife interacts with the children. An emotionally healthy person loves their children and wants to spend time with them. A personality disordered person remains distant/detached from their children, makes them feel like a burden, but can quickly act like the perfect parent when they're on stage.  

7. But the ambiguous nature of my feelings toward her are very hard to process.

I'd review all of this with a therapist and would urge you to limit contact with her until you're feeling less ambiguous. 

8. You mentioned you are friendly with your ex, but not a friend. Is this because of all the hurt that has been caused? Thank you for sharing your journey with all of us.

Unknown. I find that we're both happier when we have limited contact with each other; perhaps because our time together re-opens old wounds. I do want to stress that I was completely to blame for the end of my marriage. I lied, cheated, and emotionally abused her. We recently had a great deal of contact because I was taking our daughter on a father/daughter trip back home before a work summer abroad. Even with this limited contact, I found myself falling back into old habits and just feeling "off." So I quickly went back to very limited contact as this is ultimately healthier for me. 

I hope that answered your questions but please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Thank you for writing VVPN. In reply: 

1. I like your advice on noticing how I feel after each interaction with her. I have to always keep this in mind. I ignored those feelings during our time together.

This was my experience and I've have similar exchanges with ex-spouses. Quite often the "rose coloured glasses" fall away once the couple decides to separate/divorce. 

2. Around one year after she came out, I started noticing I felt anxious or nervous at times after we met. I wasn't sure if this was a trauma reaction, or due to something she said or the way she behaved, or all of the above. At times my feelings would only come a day after seeing her.

While I'd continue to discuss all of this with your therapist, I would be prepared to see your ex-wife more objectively as you continue to emotionally/physically detach from her. If she isn't already in the rainbow-coloured churn of gay adolescence, please be ready for several years of her acting like a newly out LGBTQ warrior. This might also include introducing one or more short-term "soul-mates" to friends, family, and the kids.   

3. Recently I started sharing less about my life or my emotions and it seems like it has had a good effect on my health. I am lucky I have a good therapist too.

This sounds like the right approach. For me personally, the "friendly but not friends" approach works best with my ex-wife. 

4. Best of luck to you!

And to you as well. Please feel free to come back and share your journey. For every straight spouse posting here, I reckon there are dozens actively following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 17, 2023 3:19 pm)

Butterfly49 wrote:

Hello

I am looking for advice as I think my husband is either gay or bisexual and I feel lost!

 

Thank you for posting although I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. If/when you're ready, please feel free to post as little or a much as you like. I find that I can usually comment when I have some background information. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Rose. In response to your recent post: 

1. Hi, Sean: I have a question about the sexually attracted to men but emotionally attracted to women split.

In previous posts, I've shared a theory that some husbands are emotionally straight and yet sexually gay: meaning they are married to women; no longer have sex with women; enjoy the status of being in a heterosexual relationship; and yet only sleep with men. Psychologist Dr. Alan Downs wrote about a similar form of "splitting" in his excellent book "The Velvet Rage." 

2. While I think it may be genuine for some, I think it is how my still-closeted working-on-having-him be my ex-husband rationalized his behavior.

If I remember correctly, this "behavior" included going to a naked male sauna, getting a naked massage from another man, and ejaculating. When caught, he absurdly claimed he was assaulted and ejaculated as a form of "squid shooting ink" self-defense. He certainly gets points for creativity, but not honesty.  

3. He “loved” me and was doing me a favor by keeping his dirty little secret under wraps. Manipulative bs. He’d be in love with a man if he thought he were allowed to be. But despite all the advances (and I actually like Pride month this year, may help us get somewhere societally; but it was painful a few years ago, when I first realized the depth of my marriage problems) he can’t see that he loves men.

Thank you for sharing the above, although I'm so very sorry you're struggling. Am I right to assume that: 

A. You now consider your husband gay and are no longer questioning his attraction to men? 
B. By writing "ex-husband" you are now planning to divorce? 

Feel free to claify, but only if you want to. 

4. Yes some people are bisexual and some love women, there is a wide range and that is wonderful.

Agreed. However, I want to challenge the idea that hearing "I'm bisexual" from a husband is somehow a positive thing. On the rare occasions when a husband clearly says, "I'm gay" this is of course devastating. But at least there is clarity: he is attracted to men and does not have any attraction to women. In my opinion, hearing "I'm bisexual" in a sexless marriage is perhaps worse because the husband is essentially claiming, "I'm attracted to both sexes but I'm not attracted to you and am choosing to no longer have sex with you." Or worse, he's shifting blame by saying, "Yes I'm still attracted to women but you're too [insert bullsh*t excuse here] so I don't want to have sex with you." 

5. But for me the emotional/sexual split is suspect. A sticky fly paper trap…in my case, a blame-shift maneuver that bears no relation to what actually happened: abuse. Not love. Truism: can’t love anyone if you don’t love yourself. And a closeted gay man does not even like himself. Ouch.

I agree. While closeted, I certainly experienced a lot of anger and self hatred then sadly projected a lot of anger/hatred towards my former wife...something I still regret to this day. 

6. I’m closer to out but still fighting to live in a world that doesn’t feel like an invisible chess match where he has to keep me cornered just to be ok. Again, ouch. Denial is a safety operation, right?

If I recall our former exchanges correctly, I believe you've reached what I consider the final pre-separation/divorce stage of a gay/straight marriage. It's a time when the wife knows her husband is having sex with men, he's more or less openly cheating with men, the couple is no longer sexually active, and there is constant conflict. Is that a fair assessment? If yes, I can only assume that your husband's two worlds are now colliding: his straight identify and gay sexuality are now overlapping and he's essentially losing his mind. 

7. And I am actually on the other side now, a threat.

Agreed. You're a threat for two reasons: first, you know his truth; and second, you can essentially end this charade by choosing to separate/divorce. 

8. I find myself just hoping he finally does fall in love with a man - so that he will leave me alone! And we both can finally come out into the light.

That's very kind of you but a word of caution: it will likely take him years post-divorce to find a long-term (male) partner. Based on our previous exchanges and years of exchanging here, I don't think your husband is going to willingly leave the comfort of your straight marriage. So I reckon it's up to you whether to stay or go. I hope that helps my friend. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 23, 2023 1:09 pm)

Good day Moppy. Thank you for posting. In reply: 

1. Hi Sean!! My husband came out to me in March of this year after years of suspicion and questioning him. We have been married 8 years and have 3 little girls, 7,6, and 2.

Understood. I will assume that he came out as gay, not bisexual, but please feel free to correct me. 

2. When he came out to me, I was flooded with relief and compassion. I initially was able to find the bright side of it all- he claims he never cheated, he seemed forthright about it, he said he came out only because he could see how much pain it was causing me. This allowed me to begin to share our story in a very loving and compassionate way. I told everyone how he didn’t mean to hurt me, that he truly did love me the best that he could, and he’s hurt too.

Got it. I have gay friends who never cheated on their wives, however, they're as rare as unicorns in my community. The most common scenario is a closeted husband who "curiously" uses porn, then "explores" via hook up app chats, then cheats yet gets scared ("I was ATTACKED at the porn shop"), then unapologetically cheats while still married. As you heard in my podcast interviews, the most common signs a husband is cheating with men are: 

- An obsessive interest in fitness and getting pumped (to be "gay ready"). 
- A new look (sexy underwear, new wardrobe, new haircut, and body shaving). 
- Devices on lockdown, lots of "business trips", and he constantly talks about new male friends (usually at the office). 
- Conjugal sex stops because he fears giving his wife an STD/STI. 

3. We knew we would separate, but werent rushing it as we wanted to unpack it all in therapy together.

I'd suggest you try individual counselling. While we've all tried couples counselling "together", it rarely helps the straight spouse. And why? Normally the gay/questioning spouse monopolizes the therapy space with his/her coming out narrative. Then the straight spouse becomes the villian because he/she is painted as not being supportive enough or, worse, as being the abuser in their relationship.  

4. Besides, we were comfortable with our life and wanted to cherish the time we had left as a family. We began flirting with other people and sharing it with each other, like middle school girls. It felt like the most idyllic unfolding of our story and we patted ourselves on the back for it. I immediately found our path and the podcast. I heard each interview with you, and was confused and almost offended by the assertions you were making about GID husbands. I thought we were different and what we had was so beautiful and unique.

Thank you for sharing this my friend. I reckon every couple thinks they are unique, something I call "best divorce EVER!" so I understand your reaction to my interviews.  

5. HOWEVER, I believe the very framework you laid is what gave me the language and perspective to see everything with new eyes. I started to see his tactics. How he would dismiss my requests for him to stay and help with bedtime. Or how he always made me feel like the reason why he went out all the time was because “I just didn’t plan enough with my friends”, but then when I did, he would make up excuses for why it would be inconvenient for me to leave.

This sounds like "detaching with love," perhaps something you can explore in individual counselling. 

6. I started seeing patterns, script flipping, blame shifting, never apologizing or owning up to when he wronged me. At first I thought “this must be the gay adolescents”, but as I am reflecting, I’m finding these patterns existed the whole time.

I'm sorry he's been treating you like this. 

7. I now am in the dumbfounded stage because even in his coming out, he was able to control the narrative and put it all on me.

Yep. 

8. After coming out, he said I can choose what happens with us (again, putting it all on me- so he could say ‘well this is what she wanted’.) When I express how hard it’s been, he says imagine being him. Or that I should be thankful he didn’t cheat. (Also- I am now wondering if he did cheat. I have no proof either way but also no reason to believe him.)

This sounds like blame shifting. As for cheating, based on my time here I'd estimate that less than 5% of closeted husbands never cheated before separation/divorce. But 100% of them use gay porn, chats, or camming with other men to "safely" explore their homosexuality while married. 

9. When I say I don’t feel like he’s truly apologized for the pain he’s caused, instead of apologizing, he says no matter what I just don’t accept his apologies.

A complete inability to apologize, always portraying himself as the victim, and constantly dismissing other's feelings do suggest a form of personality disorder. This is perhaps something you should unpack with a qualified therapist.  

10. Throughout our entire marriage he made decisions that made me uncomfortable (staying out really late, going to gay bars, going on trips that he would claim were for work but really they weren’t and I knew it) and I would express how I felt. Nothing changed. 

I'd like to know more about these "work trips" if you don't mind sharing about it. If it was with his male "office bestie" then I'd call it "out-of-town-cheating."

11. He will go from exploding in anger toward me, to our next interaction acting totally normal and chatty, and is confused why I’m still distant.

We're moving into emotional abuse territory here. 

12. I guess my question is, is it either/or? Were all of the things I thought about him completely untrue and he’s been a narcissist this entire time? Or can it be both? Can he be a kind, loving, empathetic person at his core, but acting out because of the situation he’s in? I realized the relief I felt was only present because of the years of pain I endured.

I'm not a mental health professional so I'd urge you to discuss all of this with a qualified therapist. As for "acting out because of the situation he's in..." this sounds a bit like an abuser claiming, "I only hit my wife because my father hit me as a child. I'm the real victim here!" While that's an extreme example, I'd be ready to see your husband and his behaviours in a more objective light as you move towards separation/divorce. So what's my point? There is often a post-glow honeymoon period after a husband discloses an attraction to men with his wife. In my experience, it only lasts about three months which seems to fit your own timeline. For a brief period following "discovery", she feels validated, seen, and she enjoys the attention from a husband who has often been emotionally distant for their entire relationship. In my opinion, I think deep down most straight spouses hold on to the hope that, "Well if I'm loving and supportive, he'll come back to me and our marriage...and forget all of this gay crap." This is particularly true in deeply religious or Evangelical communities because the script there is normally that being gay is more of a mental disorder that can be prayed away.  

13. I am ready to get the ball rolling with the separating, but he doesn’t even respond when I bring any aspect of it up. It’s bizarre. I’m assuming he’s just so comfortable in his nice heterosexual life with a wife that will do it all while he can explore the gay side safely.

100% agree. 

14. It feels very unfair. I’ve suggested he go stay somewhere else multiple times and he just doesn’t…

Few gay/questioning husbands just leave their comfortable nests. And why? Most straight spouses do everything for them so he has everything to lose by living on his own. If your husband was raised in an Evangelical church and/or you live in a deeply conservative city/state, then he is likely scared of separation/divorce becase he's terrified of being completely out. The most common scenario is the straight spouse kicks him out...simply because he won't leave and/or he's cheating so brazenly that she has no other choice but to end the marriage.   

15. One last thing-in 2017, he did have a relationship with a man. He made it seem completely abusive- a power dynamic between our worship pastor at our church and him. It lasted 3 months. He never admitted to having gay feelings even after that.  After hearing from you that this is another tactic, it’s hard to know where the line is of consent. I never wanted to victim blame, but after that, I never trusted him again and questioned him up until he finally came out this year.

Please define "relationship." While I don't have a lot of information here, I'm going to assume this was his first gay relationship and, like most first gay relationships between two deeply closeted men, it ended rather spectacularly (cue deafening choir music complete with organ blasting away). As you might have heard in my podcast interviews, these "Brokeback Mountain" relationships are common in both conservative states and among deeply religious communities. Closeted gay men initially seek to "pray away" their "same sex attraction", then bond with other gay men in religious communities, then inevitably a physical/sexual relationship starts. They consider these relationships somehow safe and acceptable because of the religious link; meaning having sex with another self-hating "Godly" man is somehow better than with some raging homosexual. Most importantly, both men take solace in knowing the other can't disclose the relationship...it's a kind of "mutually assured destruction clause." If I were a betting man, I reckon he demonized the other guy as a f*cked up form of insurance policy. By painting him as an abuser, he was setting the stage to discredit anything this man might tell you (the wife) following their break up. So if his former partner outed him or otherwise got in touch with you, he could then just claim, "Well he's crazy..." or make up any other kind of excuse. Again this is speculation but please feel free to share more about their relationship.         

16. Thanks for all of this! You are helping so many people process this and I commend you for it.

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I myself was also a cheater and emotionally abused my former wife. Feel free to reply to my answers and/or share more. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 24, 2023 1:51 am)