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March 1, 2023 4:26 am  #2141


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing Need. In reply: 

1. Sean, Thank you for responding. I've listened to both podcast and I really found it helpful.

Glad the podcasts helped my friend. 

2. I'm trying to figure out how to leave. I guess as the podcast mentioned I'm having a lot of issues leaving when I don't have solid proof. That and it's only been in the past 2 years that things have really gone down hill.

Based on my own relationship and based on my exchanges here over the years, most gay/straight relationships are tolerable until the closeted/questioning husband hits his late 30s or early 40s. It's when the non-straight/questioning husband hits mid-life that things typically start to fall apart. 

2. But now I have a few more questions. We have not always had a terrible relationship. And for several years he did seem pushy for sex. Which is not the same as what you describe for GID men. Have women said the same thing about their GID? Or is this more of an indicator that he is not really gay?

Again, I think his sexuality is secondary. The better question is as follows: do you want to remain in a "not terrible" and largely sexless relationship for the next 30-40 years? Most straight spouses base this decision on the first "not terrible" years of their troubled relationships and then hope for decades that he'll wake up and be the prince charming she wants. That never happens. Over the years, relationships normally devolve rather than evolve

3. I've never found proof that he is on Grindr. Just the odd reaction at the party.

You're bargaining...which is a normal reaction to a shocking situation. A normal straight husband's reaction would have been, "What's Grindr?" whereas your husband apparently looked like he was going to throw up when two gay guys talked about down-low husbands on Grindr and addressed their remarks directly at your husband. I only get defensive and angry when I feel shame or am hiding something.   

4. You mentioned porn. There was one incident in our 10 years that I saw a community he went to on Reddit was "cocks". And when I asked he said that the joke is it's actual chickens. Which I fact checked and it did have chickens but there were also some male genitals mixed in.  Now I'm an avid redditor so I know that reddit can send you to some interesting places. But I'm wondering if this is one of those "mouths moving he is lying". 

Correct. When someone flat-out denies reality - such as going on a "cocks" reddit thread and claiming it's about animals even though the odd penis picture is thrown in - this is called "gaslighting." 

5. If he is cheating (and I suspect frequently for the past 2 years). What's your guess for how long until he is back at it?

Cheaters never stop...they just try harder to hide it. 

6. Also, I've mentioned being open to bringing another male into the bedroom. Or being open to being accepting of him potentially being bi and so far he has refused. And mentioned that him refusing that should be proof that he isn't bi/gay because "wouldn't that be the dream if he was. And if he was he wouldn't turn it down".

Look I get it: you really want your husband to be straight. You also want him to be attracted to you sexually. You (both) want it so badly that you're now offering to let him have sex with another man while you watch. Is this the relationship you dreamed of as a little girl? 

7. Would he deny that just to keep me from knowing. Or would a [gay-in-denial] GID turn that down? What's your thoughts and opinions?

I think you're in shock and are understandably scared because separation and divorce are very hard. In these relationships, there is often a lot of (pink) smoke before the fire. I would urge you to: 

- Find a qualified therapist for individual counselling. 
- Start your own thread on this forum.
- Share everything...without feeling the need to minimize and/or protect him.
- To gain clarity on your situation, imagine if your best friend or adult daughter came to you with the same stories then ask yourself: what advice would you give them?  

I hope that helps my friend. Please feel free to post anytime if you have more to share or additional questions. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 1, 2023 9:47 am)

 

March 1, 2023 10:16 am  #2142


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for posting Need. In reply: 

1. Hi Sean! Thanks for the response but I think you've responded mixing information in with another poster. I've never caught my spouse watching any kind of trans porn, or meeting up with anyone. That appears to be the poster above me. Most of the information I have I mentioned in an earlier post.

Please accept my apologies for the error. I have revised/corrected the above post. 

2. Although you are correct there is a two tidbits of information I have held back.

I'd encourage you to share everything when you're ready. We're only as sick as our secrets in my opinion. 

3. I do have a few more questions: you mentioned that you started not wanting to be around your wife and it felt like she was getting in the way of your affairs. Did you withdraw emotionally? Like stop most communication?

These are excellent questions. I had my first sexual encounter with another man during a business trip and it so scared me that I swore to never attempt gay sex again. But I soon found myself meeting more men on business trips, then using Grindr, and had lots of hookups etc. I grew up during the worst of AIDS crisis and thought that gay = AIDS = death. So I withdrew sexually from my (then) wife because I was terrified of giving her an STD/STI and thereby outing myself. Later I came out to my (then) wife and it was if some form of sexual damn just burst. I started brazenly cheating on her via Grindr hookups and that was when I emotionally withdrew from her. During that troubled time I was in full-blown gay adolescence and acted like a petulant teen who's mom (my then wife) was keeping me from being my authentic self. I'd often use the silent treatment to torture her. 

4. If so, was your outlet to a single AP? Or random hookups, or internet forums?

Does AP mean affair partner? I met my current partner (now together for 11 years) shortly after coming out. But I was also having sex with random men as well. I don't use internet forums, other than this forum of course. 

5. I'm curious if his emotional detachment/lack of communication indicates a single affair partner or multiple.

Unknown but does it really matter. If your husband is cheating on you he will likely continue to do so. 

6. What can you tell a wife or anyone that doesn't have solid poof about walking away without finding more information. It's driving me crazy to not know what's going on. And the wanting to find out is almost 100 percent keeping me stuck. I guess the podcast mentioned there being smoke before the fires.

I personally believe that the straight spouse's need for more proof, particularly in the face of a lying/dishonest/cheater of a husband, is simply a delaying tactic. Most of the women I've interacted with over the years had terrible relationships, before even questioning her husband's sexuality. Let's not forget that many wives divorce when they find out their husbands are cheating. Unfortunately, the goalposts keep moving in gay/straight relationships. It starts with porn and she forgives him. Then it's a lack of sex and she agrees to "work on the relationship" which really means she believes it's somehow her fault. Then he cheats "once" with another man but he's forgiven because it's "trauma re-enactment" or some other bullsh*t excuse. Then he gets caught multiple times and his wife patiently waits for things to get better. Sadly, it only gets worse. So what's my point? I'd suggest you take the relationship you have now, warts and all, and ask yourself if you want to be with this partner and feel this way for the next 10-20-30 years. I'd urge you to set aside the issue of his sexuality and focus on whether this man truly deserves you.    

7. I'd almost describe it as my house fell down and I need/want to know why.

Fair comment. There comes a time in these relationships when the straight spouse no longer looks to her troubled husband for answers. She looks within herself to determine if this is a truly loving and honest relationship.  

8. Or maybe a different analogy would be someone has killed my most important loved one and no one will give me the why.

I understand. But if you think of your relationship as dead/buried, then perhaps it's time to mourn, heal, and move on? Many straight spouses never hear "I'm gay" from closeted ex-husbands. Many straight spouses only receive confirmation that their husbands were always gay after separation/divorce. 

I hope that helps friend. Be well! 

 

March 10, 2023 2:11 am  #2143


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing Need. In reply: 

1. I'm working with a therapist and lawyer. And making steps to separate myself.

Understood. Good luck. 

2. But I'm curious. What are some tells/signs of straight men in the closet? For example three things that I've really wondered about: 1. Colorful socks. About 2-3 years ago he started wearing bright colorful socks that just don't seem like him at all. 2. Random trips to hardware stores or random, unplanned shopping trips. 3. He purchased an anal sex toy. Wanted to use it himself without me. Claims he hated it. But...two years later he hasn't thrown that toy out. I never see him use it. But why keep it?

I'm not sure if colourful socks scream "gay" but a change in wardrobe is common with a cheating husband. If he has an anal sex toy then he's using it for prostate stimulation...without you (his wife). The classic "pink" flags he's closeted/questioning are: 

- He was bullied as a child for being gay (something a wife can easily confirm with his mother or sister). 
- The relationship is largely sexless and he's never really demonstrated an interest in heterosexual sex. 
- On the rare occasions when the couple has sex, he creates a lot of rules: lights off; wife has to shower; only one position; the kissing is dry; and (later) he can't maintain an erection. Put bluntly, it's a chore for him rather than intimacy...something he tries to avoid. 
- He shows a keen interest in gay media, movies, gay porn, and gay culture online. For example his Netflix or Tik Tok history is that of a gay man and yet strangely he denies all of it.  
- He surrounds himself with a lot of gay co-workers and/or has a boyfriend-like relationship with another man his age. 
- He frequently travels for work. 
- When he starts cheating (with men), he suddenly demonstrates an obsessive interest in physical fitness, starts wearing sexy underwear, and often changes his hairstyle.   

There are, of course, more obvious signs a husband is closeted such as: Grindr (a gay hook up app) on his phone; a history of cheating with men; and gay porn.  

I hope that helps my friend. Feel free to post again if I haven't answered your questions. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 10, 2023 2:23 am)

 

March 26, 2023 7:06 pm  #2144


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean - question for you. And I think a lot of us are asking this, in some form - what if you still love them?

 

March 27, 2023 1:02 am  #2145


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing Rose. In reply: 

"Sean - question for you. And I think a lot of us are asking this, in some form - what if you still love them?"

I'd suggest finishing these sentences: 

Love for me means....
Love for him means...

I'll use your own posts to complete the latter. Love for him means...

1. Having at least one affair with a man who sent me dirty pictures of the two of them having sex through my social media accounts as well as sexy text messages, etc.
2. He can be lacerating, so sharp when he is angry.
3. He had another burner cell in his backpack last month.
4. [His wife] Feeling very alone in the marriage for about sixteen or even twenty years now. 
5. Getting drunk and losing his job - that we moved for - he still can’t get control of his drinking - but somehow all of this is my fault, for not “forgiving” him.
6. Years of his not having orgasms (I asked, for years - was it me or was it the Zoloft?) yup, the dry kisses. And the dog in between us in bed.

So his definitions of love and marriage mean: 

1. Cheating/infidelity/dishonesty/maniuplation. 
2. Verbal and emotional abuse. 
3. Neglecting, ignoring, and isolating his wife. 
4. Alcoholism. 
5. Sexual neglect. 

So my questions to you are as follows: by staying with this man for so many unhappy years, is this how you wish to define love for yourself, your children and, later, your grandchildren? By staying in such a toxic relationship, you're demonstrating by your actions that this is how they should (and will) define love. Does the above at all align with your own definitions of love and marriage? The most loving thing I ever did for my (then) wife was set her free via separation/divorce. The most loving thing I ever did for her was get the f*ck out of her life....forever. In my opinion, you love your husband like an addict loves drugs. Your husband sounds like an addiction, not a loving partner. Thanks for sharing friend and please feel free to respond. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 27, 2023 1:11 am)

 

March 27, 2023 5:48 am  #2146


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

“In my opinion, you love your husband like an addict loves drugs.”
Kind of - and I posted here instead of appeasing him, so that was progress, right?! I do think to myself “Rose, call your sponsor…”
If that’s that case, the problematic appeal is the woundedness.I see the hurt and I’m drawn to it like a moth to a flame. I want to help him heal. But you said it before - I can’t do it. He needs to be around other gay men, not me - no matter what he is saying.
And yes, he’s acting like a total jerk, but that’s not all he is. Like most of us, he’s a lot of things and given his fractured self, he’s probably more. Was it Leonard Bernstein who had sex with his boyfriend in the hall while his wife was in the next room?
My husband is smart and charismatic but he’s not Leonard Bernstein. And I’m out. I know it’s the path to health for all of us. I admit, I’m envious of your ex-wife that you saw it. We are a long way from that. He thinks being gay is great for other people but not for him. And he hates me leaving - he has nothing to rebel against. I’m closing on my own house this week. It’s taking a while but we are working towards a new chapter. And yes, I think I’d best attend to my own woundedness. Thank you again for being a reality check. I really appreciate it. Rose

 

March 27, 2023 7:39 am  #2147


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thanks Rose. A new house...congratulations! I know you don't like the term but I would still encourage you to explore co-dependency, perhaps by attending coda.org meetings and/or getting a sponsor. Perhaps co-dependency is something you can also explore with a counsellor, a family member, or trusted friend. For me personally, I think you should start counting days that you go no contact, or at least limited contact, with your future ex-husband. Clearly you and he don't work together and never will. Put bluntly, you've spent the better part of 15 years treading water with this man on your shoulders so imagine how lovely it will be to swim on your own. I know it's easy for me to judge your situation from 30,000 ft and a continent away but I think you and your children are very brave. Enjoy your new house, your newfound freedom, and your new life. Onward! 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 27, 2023 8:24 am)

 

March 27, 2023 8:58 am  #2148


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you again Sean, for taking the time to help. I hear you on the codependency issues, and I’ll follow up. While I don’t think it’s any of our “fault” if someone is lying to us, I can see that I’ve been ineffective to date, at getting this to a healthier place. Yes, onward <3

 

March 28, 2023 1:19 am  #2149


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thanks Rose. In reply: 

"​While I don’t think it’s any of our “fault” if someone is lying to us, I can see that I’ve been ineffective to date, at getting this to a healthier place."

Perhaps. A fellow member posts something along the lines of: 

"Whatever he [my future ex-husband] is, he isn't for me." 

Most straight spouses I've exchanged with over the years struggle to define their husbands' sexualities; largely because their husbands are incapable of admitting their own attraction to, or to having sex with, men. Whether it takes 1 month, 1 year, or a decade, I reckon straight spouses eventually say to themselves, "Whatever he is, he just isn't for me." With regards to co-dependency, while the term scared me at first I no longer see it as a negative word. For me personally, co-dependency is as involuntary as sexual orientation or eye colour. After years of posting here, I strongly believe that most gay/straight marriages mirror almost exactly narcissist/co-dependent relationships. Narcissists live only for themselves and often choose as partners co-dependents...who only live for (or through) others. So what's my point? If a straight spouse is indeed "co-dependent" I don't see it as a spouse being lesser than; nor do I see it in terms of being at fault. I see it more in terms of a caring straight wife lovingly and methodically gluing back together the pieces of a shattered relationship; only to have her closeted husband smash it it to pieces again and again and again. If a straight spouse is indeed a co-dependent, which a mental health professional can quickly diagnose, acknowledging and working on co-dependency won't change a troubled past with a closeted spouse. There was never any way she could fix him if he is constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself regarding his attraction to men. Working on her co-dependency alone will, however, assist her with both present and future relationships. And this work might help you and others avoid toxic men in future romantic relationships as well. Food for thought. I hope that makes sense on some level my friend. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 28, 2023 9:03 am)

 

March 28, 2023 2:17 pm  #2150


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Just a quick reaction to Rose's question:  "Sean - question for you. And I think a lot of us are asking this, in some form - what if you still love them?"  Sean's answer is good, but I have to inject a straight partner perspective.

This question goes to the core of the straight partner experience.  I eventually accepted that the woman I loved was a fictional character played by a skilled, Oscar-caliber actress.  The woman I loved didn't exist in the real world any more than Princess Leia, Mary Poppins, or Sarah Connor.  I never would have fallen in love with the deceptive lesbian actress in front of me, yet to whom I committed my life and with whom I had three children.

To answer Rose's question, we never truly loved them because they never existed.  This realization is painful, angering, and anguishing.  But it's ultimately empowering because it allows us to regain a foothold in reality and start logically plotting our path forward with the actor or actress rather than a fictional character.

Last edited by Blue Bear (March 28, 2023 2:18 pm)

 

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