Thank you, Gloria.

Also many thanks to Sean for the podcasts. They were very informative. I'm so glad I found this site. I do feel a sense of closure now that has been elusive for almost 25 years. I felt emotionally healed before, and my significant other is wonderful and helped me heal, but closure is different than healing. I just kept wondering, uncertain of my conclusions about his sexuality. I no longer have any doubts at all. 

Thank you everyone for posting. In reply: 

Beastie wrote: 

1. Yes, much of his behavior was truly monstrous. I know there are disagreements over your use of the term narcissist but that's the one diagnosis I've always been certain of with him - he is a malignant narcissist and has damaged a lot of lives on the way. He also had some sociopathic traits on the way, like setting fires and fighting constantly as a child/teenager. My (now adult) children still struggle with the effects of his narcissism. The court ordered them to visit him every other weekend, which was enough time to continue the damage. 

Tragic. Question: what is their relationship with dad now? While closeted, I believe I had a form of gay-in-denial (or GID) narcissism and I do believe that closeted/questioning spouses display a lot of narcissistic traits. Conversely, I also believe that many straight spouses are co-dependents. 

2. The Mormon church has a very problematic relationship with gay members. It prefers the term "same sex attraction" and used to act like even having SSA was a serious sin. They have been very active in fighting equal rights for gay people. Recently it's modified its position somewhat, by allowing that people with "same sex attraction" were born that way, but God wants them to live celibate lives and resist that temptation. So it's not a sin to BE gay anymore, but it is a serious sin to have gay sex. It used to quite openly encourage mixed marriages, but I think it does not anymore, but there are plenty of local leaders who still do. Some Mormon couples in mixed marriages were very open about it, and one was even on some TV show. One of the most vocal couples eventually divorced - of course - because they decided neither one was willing to live without the intimacy they craved and deserved. (Lolly and Josh, I think were their names) Now they've come out in support of gay rights. 

I've interviewed Josh Weed, the former poster boy for gay/straight Mormon mixed-orientation marriages (or MOMs) Josh and Lolly Weed’s account of why their “mixed orientation” marriage failed is remarkable. (slate.com). I am very strongly against MOMs between gay men and straight women.  

3. The Mormon church got into a controversy when a few years ago it declared it wouldn't even baptize the children of gay parents unless the children were old enough to renounce their parents' lifestyles. That was so extreme there was a big backlash and they had to back down. So they may be making tiny baby steps towards progress, but overall, the Mormon church is a very destructive place for a gay child to grow up in. 

While I'm no scholar, this isn't the only time the Mormon church found itself scrambling to adapt to public opinion. The church was forced to denounce polygamy and also had to reverse a prior ban on blacks becoming Mormons. 

4. And, of course, my ex grew up in the sixties, when it was even worse. Back then, gay people were as sinful as murderers, and Mormon parents were taught that it would be better if their gay child had died than to go on to be gay in life. The suicide rate among gay Mormon youth is still tragically high.

How sad. 

5. So I feel compassion for my ex-husband, because I know he felt like he had no choice but to pretend. His father was already beating him for other things (who knows, maybe he got caught with boys as well and just didn't tell me, he did tell me he used to dress in his grandmother's underwear, so maybe he got caught doing that, and he used to brag about how the other boys in the locker room would stare at his penis), and they definitely would have disowned him. But what I just can't forgive him for is all the cruelty that he then chose to inflict on his wife and children, maybe out of his own frustration and anger.

Well this is his version of events. I reckon straight wives can be skeptical when their closeted/questioning husbands paint themselves as victims. If he's been a liar and a cheat your entire relationship, he's likely lying about his past. 

6. I know he was watching porn because a couple of times I found his secret porn tapes. I was a good Mormon girl so wouldn't watch porn myself, but the one time I popped in one of the tapes it wasn't gay porn, but it was violent against women. I was so disgusted I ripped it out after a couple of seconds and destroyed it with a hammer. I don't know if my ex-husband would ever have been brave enough to rent gay porn, because back then you had to go in the store and rent it physically, so I always figured he just focused on the men. And there were other times I woke up late at night and would find him "asleep" in the recliner, but I could tell the TV had just been turned off.

Sad. 

7. I've actually been tempted to try to track down his former best friends...

Correction: former boyfriends/lovers. 

8. ...but I'm scared. I'm still scared of him even though we have no contact, and it's been almost 25 years since we were together. I really felt, at one point, that he would have killed me if he could have gotten away with it. So I'm afraid if I contact one of them, they might still be in touch with him and tell on me. "Hey, your ex-wife is spreading the rumor you're gay." I shudder to think what he might to do me then.  Unfortunately, I can't remember all their last names, and the ones I do remember aren't on Facebook or anything like that. Remember, we're boomers.  LOL. 

I wouldn't compromise your safety and the last thing you want to do is be on this toxic man's radar. 

9. I've talked to my kids a lot about it. At first they were just like, ewww, mom, don't make us think about dad and sex. My daughter was the first to say, yeah, I can see that.

Daughters often understand dad's unspoken secret before he comes out.  

10. My oldest child is MTF transgender, and my middle son is bisexual, so they both figure, yeah, runs in the family. But their relationship with their dad is very fractured and they aren't around him much. They do say that there is obviously no affection or intimacy between him and his current wife. They also have witnessed homophobic behavior from him which I didn't really see. 

Sometimes closeted men act like the biggest bigots/homophobes as cover.  

11. I used to hope he'd come clean one day, but I now accept that will never happen. Your validation alone means the world to me. It sounds strange that validation from a stranger on the internet could help me, but I've read enough of this thread to respect your willingness to be open and honest, no matter how hard it is. Plus, who would know better than another (formerly) closeted gay narcissist?  I'm just relieved that I wasn't imagining something ridiculous, and that I can be satisfied with the last puzzle  piece!

Glad to have helped in some way but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health expert. 

12. Another strange little item - to my knowledge, my ex has had five serious boyfriends over the years. I should have modified my last summary of them, to signify that I know nothing about the newest one. I could probe my kids more about him. So of the four I know about, two were married, and those relationships tended to end after a couple of years. It was the unmarried friends that he lasted the longest with. The one I knew the best, because they were "friends" while we were still married, stayed unmarried through most of their 12-year-friendship, but the friendship appeared to end after he finally got married (to a woman). The other long term relationship lasted 20 years or more, and that one never married, and he was a very eligible doctor. I was surprised to hear that relationship seemed to fizzle out in the last year or so and there's a new "friend".

Our Path's Kristin Kalbli and I discussed these "Brokeback Mountain" relationships here S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath.  

13. A funny story about the [boy]friend I knew the best - he came by my house one day when he knew my ex-husband wasn't there, and invited me to go swimming with him in his private pond. I was nine months pregnant and it the whole thing felt weird, so I made an excuse and didn't go. But I never forgot that incident. At the time, I wondered if his friend was hitting on me, although he had shown no signs of doing so and I was very pregnant. But some men like pregnant woman. It was only after I began to suspect that my ex is gay that I wondered if his "friend" was feeling guilty and wanted to tell me something. 

Shudder. Closeted men are f*cking crazy...I certainly was. 

14. I should also clarify my family's skepticism. They're willing to accept that he is bisexual. They just struggle with him being exclusively homosexual.

Likely because some of them still believe being gay is somehow evil or perhaps a form of mental disorder...as many churches still teach. When straight spouses find proof their husbands are engaging sexually with other men, I encourage them to ask their husbands, "What does gay mean to you?" and/or "Can two men actually love each other?" rather than jumping to the "Are you GAY!!??" interrogation. If a closeted/questioning husband thinks of "gay" as being exclusively drag queens, back-alley sexual deviants, or angel-winged pride float glitter boys, he isn't likely going to see himself as being any of these because he has such a negative view of homosexuality. 

15. Which, in its own way, still hurts a little. It's almost like they're making excuses for his lack of interest in me, while pretending he must be attracted to women in general even if he also likes men.

I reckon it's time to stop yelling at the deaf my friend. The only people who might consider your ex-husband is/was gay are those who first accept that gay people truly exist. So I'd stop debating this with people who can't even acknowledge that people are born gay or, worse, that being gay is some form of "choice." I've long stopped engaging with people who can't accept me nor my relationship with another man. Move on. 

16. I've just become so confident in my own sexuality and attractiveness, particularly when I was younger (gotta be realistic about aging, ha) that it stuns me they think there would be some reason he just couldn't be attracted to me, personally, but still be attracted to women in general. I think it comes from their own lack of understanding of the entire phenomenon of mixed marriages. I think they just can't accept a man who is only attracted to men could be married for so long. 

I agree! 

Rose wrote: Sean, lots of us have questions for you here! Just quickly to reassure you - I have gotten excellent therapists, psychiatrists for all of us. Between Boston and NY I feel very lucky - and like you said my closeted husband thrives on recognition and approval so he is very good at work, and financial resources aren’t an issue, for which I am grateful. But here’s the giant “but” - it’s still super hard if someone is lying. He still wants that front up so there is only so far the rest of it can go. I really hate lying, and I really hate the bias that is driving it. Stop it people - you are causing great harm. And thank you Sean for having the conversation these guys can’t - look how much we need it. Ugh.

While I'll always defer to mental health professionals, I still believe your son is suffering under the crushing weight of keeping his dad's secrets. For me personally, my ex-wife and kids only started to heal after separation, divorce, and my coming out. If I may be so bold, I think your "take it slow" approach with your son is more about you coming to terms with what your husband's homosexuality means to you and your marriage. This is understandable and clearly there are financial concerns as well. However, I reckon it's time to rip off that (pink) band aid. If your kids know dad's gay and have probably known for years, I see no reason to tap dance around it. It's time to free both yourself and your kids of this terrible burden. I don't see any benefit in forcing your kids to live in denial...as their father has for most of his life.  

FinallyFree2 wrote: 

1. I’m also an exMormon with a gay in denial husband.  We have been married over 25 years and our sex life has sucked for the entire marriage.  Being Mormon, he was my first sexual partner.  I had nothing to compare it to but I knew it lacked the passion I had with prior boyfriends.  Thankfully he moved out in February of this year.  He wants to be married “living apart together” so I can continue to be his beard.   I was so sick of him making excuses for not wanting to have sex with me.  I don’t know how many times he called me oversexed cause I wanted sex at least once a month.  Our last time we had sex was over 8 years ago.  Prior to that, he could rarely maintain an erection.  I spent the last 25 years feeling like crap and unattractive.   Being constantly turned down has played a major impact on my confidence and body image.  Last year I lost over 50 lbs and been working with a personal trainer, three times a week, for the last 10 months.  Thankfully I am feeling stronger and better about myself and feel much much better since he moved out.  No daily reminders that he isn’t attracted to me.

I'm so sorry he did this to you. But I'm thrilled you're now separated and fabulous. 

2. I always thought he might be bisexual and or gay.  After my father passed away in 2018, I went to therapy and that is when I asked him if he was gay.  His reply, in front of the therapist, was he “didn’t like labels”.  When I asked him again in December 2021, after he suggested he wanted to “live apart together, I asked him again and he did not answer the question.   So yes, I think he is 100% gay even though he does not want to admit it. 

I agree. 

3. I hate the Mormon church for pushing gay men and women to marry straight spouses.  If the Mormon church was more accepting, maybe there would be less couples having to do thru this trauma.  I’m so glad I left years ago!

I think it's time we stopped looking for guidance about homosexuality and gay marriage from a church that believes in the planet Kolob.  

4. I have been reading these boards for years and listening to the podcasts.  It has made me feel that I’m not alone.  Beastie, just know that you are not alone too.

Thank you for sharing your story. Keep coming back. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (April 16, 2022 3:19 am)

Sean wrote:

Thank you everyone for posting. In reply: 

Tragic. Question: what is their relationship with dad now? While closeted, I believe I had a form of gay-in-denial (or GID) narcissism and I do believe that closeted/questioning spouses display a lot of narcissistic traits. Conversely, I also believe that many straight spouses are co-dependents.

Their dad is 100% a malignant narcissist and they all accept that. He is a textbook case. I have read and heard you talk about your own narcissism, and I view it as "secondary" narcissism, caused by gay-in-denial. You, and other GID spouses, engaged in classic narcissistic behavior, but the cause wasn't primary narcissism, the actual personality disorder. It was a disorder caused by twisted attempts at survival, in my (nonmedical) opinion. But my exhusband obviously has the actual personality disorder itself. 

I have struggled with co-dependency throughout my life. I suffered emotional neglect as a child. I went to counseling a couple of years ago to help me set clearer boundaries with my adult children due to my co-dependent issues. It did help. Fortunately, I was lucky enough (and it was plain luck because I had not worked on my own issues enough to choose wisely) to fall in love with the kindest and most clear-headed man I have ever known, and he just wouldn't take advantage of me and set clear boundaries himself. So while I know I still have these issues, I think I have made progress. 

My children are all now in their thirties. They are wonderful, caring people who have had a LOT of struggles in life. My ex-husband took me to court to get joint custody of the children despite his minimal, and usually negative, involvement in their care. It was the scariest time of my life. I'm just lucky he was not from a wealthy family, otherwise he may have been able to succeed. So I was awarded full custody, but they had to visit him every other weekend. That was enough for him to continue to damage them. 

My middle son became very ill with bipolar when he was 14. This was not a surprise due to my ex's bipolar, but my ex refused to accept the diagnosis for years, until it was to his advantage to accept him (and try to convince me that I shouldn't believe the stories my son was telling me about what his dad was saying and doing to him - including offering to get him a gun when he expressed suicidal feelings). My ex and his sugar mommy were equally abusive to him because he was making their lives uncomfortable with his illness. So my son refused to see him at all for a while, and now only sees him once or twice a year, mainly because he has a daughter and my extended Mormon  family made him feel guilty for not allowing his dad to have a "relationship" with his granddaughter. My son's bipolar is controlled with medication, which he's always taken religiously partly due to seeing the destruction his dad's untreated bipolar caused. He is in therapy really working on his issues, but does have a good marriage. He and his wife (second wife) live in my basement apartment so I can help take care of my autistic granddaughter.

My youngest daughter sees him a bit more, but still very limited. She was the "golden child" growing up but got addicted to opioids and later cocaine (not surprising for golden children). She got in trouble with the law and was in rehab twice. She has turned her life around and is doing very well, but is in therapy to deal with her trust issues. I think she will never be able to have a long-term relationship with a man due to those issues, but as long as she's happy and healthy single, I'm fine with that.  On one level she knows associating with her dad tends to be bad for her, but because of his sugar mommy he has more spare money than I do to help her out when she needs it, and to be frank, that's part of the reason she keeps contact with him.

Both these children are very clear-headed about who their dad is and the negative impact he tends to have. They see him mainly on Christmas, and maybe one other time during the year.  They talk on the phone occasionally.

My oldest MTF transgender daughter is the one who sees him the most. She still presents as male (because she's afraid of losing her good job), so that's kind of confusing, but my ex was actually accepting of her when she came out as transgender. Maybe that is because this is the child who has been the most forgiving of him and the most willing to try to have a "real" relationship with him, with limited success. She sees him probably six times a year but talks to him on the phone every week. 

When I first talked to my kids about him being gay, they flat out said "no way". It was only when I shared more details over the years that they gradually changed to "maybe, but I don't want to think about it", to "probably, but I don't want to think about it."  I can't blame them. 

Sean wrote:

 I've interviewed Josh Weed, the former poster boy for gay/straight Mormon mixed-orientation marriages (or MOMs) Josh and Lolly Weed’s account of why their “mixed orientation” marriage failed is remarkable. (slate.com). I am very strongly against MOMs between gay men and straight women. 

I will definitely check that out. I was thrilled when they finally told the truth - ie, that mixed marriages don't work, and that gay people deserve to have intimacy like anyone else in this world. I was proud of them for being brave.

Sean wrote:

 While I'm no scholar, this isn't the only time the Mormon church found itself scrambling to adapt to public opinion. The church was forced to denounce polygamy and also had to reverse a prior ban on blacks becoming Mormons.

Exactly. And their OPEN policy is to never apologize. If they apologize for their past actions, it's the equivalent of admitting past leaders were WRONG and LED THE CHURCH ASTRAY, which their theology will not allow them to do. (minor correction: black people were allowed to become Mormons, they just were not allowed to hold the priesthood or go to the temple, the most sacred covenants of Mormonism, so they were second-class Mormons)

It will be very difficult for them to backpedal entirely on homosexuality. Mormon theology is based on the idea that "celestial marriage" is necessary to get into the highest degree of heaven, and that procreation will continue in heaven through eternity (the real teaching is that this allows faithful believers to become "exalted" and eventually become gods of their own planets, but the church has downplayed and even partly denied that teaching lately in order to appear more mainstream). In the early days of the church, celestial marriage meant plural marriage, but once that changed, it came to be understood as marriage between one man and one woman (although men continue to be able to be eternally married to more than one woman). So the entire foundation of Mormon theology is based on eternal marriage and eternal procreation. While obviously gay people can procreate, it's outside the bounds of their primary relationships (either through medical intervention or past mixed relationships), so it's not nwithin the God-approved bounds. So how can they fit in Mormon theology?  

It may happen eventually. The Mormon church wants to survive, and young people are leaving in droves. Young people tend to automatically accept gay people, so as time goes on, this will be a bigger problem for the church. It's possible they could alter their theology to include eternal gay couples.  I mean, we're talking about something not even serious believers understand ("exalted" Mormons have resurrected bodies, have sex, make babies, but those babies are born of spirit, not flesh), so I can see them just saying that it will all work out somehow (through spiritual artificial insemination), but it would take a long time and lots of loss of tithe payers for that to happen. I don't expect it in my lifetime.

Which means that the Mormon church will continue to produce a high number of miserable mixed marriages and unhappy divorces. 

Note: I do want to be careful in my criticism of the Mormon church, because I suspect that there are believing Mormons who are members of this group looking for support. I don't want to alienate them but have to be honest about the destructive role Mormonism played in my mixed marriage. 

Sean wrote:

 
Well this is his version of events. I reckon straight wives can be skeptical when their closeted/questioning husbands paint themselves as victims. If he's been a liar and a cheat your entire relationship, he's likely lying about his past.

You are so right. I should have been skeptical of his story about childhood abuse. I know their dad used to "whip" them with the belt, because his brother also talked about that, but the bleeding legs does sound suspicious, in retrospect. He grew up in the same home as his grandmother as well as his mother, and I can't imagine either would have tolerated that level of abuse. And I especially should have been skeptical because he was a pathological liar AND he didn't tell me about this level of abuse until he knew our marriage was over and he was saying/doing anything he could to stop me. 

Sean wrote:

 Correction: former boyfriends/lovers.

Yes! It's time I stop being so careful about that, leaving room for doubt. After listening to the Brokeback Mountain part of your broadcast, it's clear they were boyfriends. They weren't Mormons, because that would be too risky. Faithful Mormons believe in confessing their sins to their church leader, and he would never have trusted another Mormon enough to NOT break down and do that one day, and then he'd be in trouble. 

Sean wrote:

I wouldn't compromise your safety and the last thing you want to do is be on this toxic man's radar.

Yes. That's part of the reason your affirmation meant a lot to me - there is only a very small group of people I have talked to about this. I haven't reached out to people who might know more (like his first wife's family who grew up with him) out of fear of it getting back to him. 

Sean wrote:

  Sometimes closeted men act like the biggest bigots/homophobes as cover. 

I had heard that, but the topic never came up between us, so I never saw it. But over the years my kids have. That's part of the reason I was so surprised my ex was accepting of my transgender daughter. Whatever the reason, I'm glad he's been good about that one thing at least. 

Sean wrote:

Glad to have helped in some way but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health expert.

You have helped a lot. You're not a mental health expert, but, in my opinion, you're an expert on GID husbands, and that's the expertise I needed. I have been to therapy several times since leaving him and feel pretty emotionally healthy, with awareness of my boundary issues with co-dependency.

Sean wrote:

Our Path's Kristin Kalbli and I discussed these "Brokeback Mountain" relationships here S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath. 

I loved the podcasts! They were very helpful. I do now accept that these were boyfriends/lovers. They really were like his husbands. 

Sean wrote:

  Likely because some of them still believe being gay is somehow evil or perhaps a form of mental disorder...as many churches still teach. When straight spouses find proof their husbands are engaging sexually with other men, I encourage them to ask their husbands, "What does gay mean to you?" and/or "Can two men actually love each other?" rather than jumping to the "Are you GAY!!??" interrogation. If a closeted/questioning husband thinks of "gay" as being exclusively drag queens, back-alley sexual deviants, or angel-winged pride float glitter boys, he isn't likely going to see himself as being any of these because he has such a negative view of homosexuality.

That's a good point. While many of my family are still believing Mormons, they are much more accepting of homosexuality than many Mormons are, especially the younger generation. My grandniece came out as gay in high school, and her active Mormon parents accept her. Fortunately for her, she's not active in church so isn't dealing with that toxicity, but I applaud her believing parents for loving their child more than some bigoted religious belief. 

Sean wrote:

I reckon it's time to stop yelling at the deaf my friend. The only people who might consider your ex-husband is/was gay are those who first accept that gay people truly exist. So I'd stop debating this with people who can't even acknowledge that people are born gay or, worse, that being gay is some form of "choice." I've long stopped engaging with people who can't accept me nor my relationship with another man. Move on.

This makes sense. Even though my Mormon family is more tolerant and liberal than many Mormons, heterosexuality is still a core basic tenet of Mormon theology. Accepting that some people are homosexual and not bisexual means accepting that God created people completely at odds with their basic theology. I never thought of it in those terms before, but I bet you're right. I bet it is their religious beliefs that, in the end, prevent them from accepting that is he homosexual, and not (maybe) bisexual). In an odd way, that does make it hurt less. 



 

Last edited by beastie (April 16, 2022 9:50 am)

Another thing this has cleared up for me - early in our marriage, during one of his rants, my ex accused me of "tricking" him into marrying me. I was just so confused. I had no idea what he could possibly mean. Now I realize that it was projection. He had tricked me into marrying him, and he knew it.

I’ve never been this confused and sad I think my son may have either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. He is enrolled in the right program, and we are just beginning to learn more. The idea that serious mental illness could be caused by my husband’s orientation issues seems like a stretch in some ways, but undoubtedly they added stress, which is a contributing factor. Here’s the crazy thing: they kind of look alike. Delusions. Denial. If it’s that. My husband is very seriously saying I am all he wants, and can we really “call it” for someone else? At what point is that abusive? Ugh. I am now losing my mind too. I am going to trust the professionals here for a while now I guess, and just take it all day by day.

Last edited by RoseColoredGlasses (April 17, 2022 5:46 am)