Sean,

I’d like to apologize for getting a little defensive before.

I did the reading you suggested and took a long hard look at the past decade of my life from an outsider’s point of view. When I heaped all the little ‘molehills’ I excused in my youth into a pile, I wound up with quite the mountain. It wasn’t just being made to feel insecure about my appearance, the ever moving goal post, lack of affection and subtle gaslighting... I was isolated, there were a couple of years where I couldn’t even see my family except on holidays, he’d get angry if I even asked. I had to make less money than him, and I had to keep my work hours within his, or he’d be toxic. He had all the control and there were endless double standards. Even assuming the best (that he wasn’t doing all this intentionally), you were right about our relationship in the past being abusive.

Two separate statements he made nearly 10 years ago really put things in perspective for me. Firstly, he had told me that I was responsible for my own emotions and it wasn’t his fault or problem if the things he did or said hurt me or made me feel insecure, that was my problem and I needed to get over it. Second, he told me that he didn’t owe me anything and so if I said/did something he didn’t like he could/would just leave. When I put those statements together what he really told me was this: “I can treat you however I please and it’s your responsibility to just get over it, but if you don’t behave the way I want you to then I’ll just leave you.” 

He thinks I’m unreasonable for ‘holding past mistakes against him‘ when he’s trying and doing so much better this time... that is BS. He just cracked Pandora’s box back open, after lying and sneaking around with it. Things might not be ‘that bad’ right now, but they were before and could be again. I am 100% justified in my concerns.

On a separate note, I’m going to make a slight correction to your statement about him giving me oral because I made noises about leaving. I have not made those noises yet this time, he’s making preemptive efforts to appease me because we have come close to divorce in the past... and technically he’s appeasing me by accepting oral not by giving it. Rarely is it the other way around. I prefer being on the giving side anyway so that doesn’t bug me. (Why would I want someone who’s previously voiced an aversion to my intimate areas to have his face buried in them? All that’s going to do is make me feel insecure.)

Hopeless Romantic,
My husband has also given the hurtful line about it being my issue if I feel hurt by him, that it has nothing to do with him and I need to deal with any petty, babyish emotions alone if I feel hurt. It’s countless times now of that. He also started saying it if my abusive, mentally ill, addicted family members hurt me - he was also not to be part of my emotions. Often when I feel sad or frustrated, he yells, “I will not let you manipulate me!!!” So me having any emotion besides happy is manipulative?! He has zero tolerance for our kids as well.

It’s so terrible to be treated like that. To have your human reactions pathologized. It’s not okay!

I love that Sean mentioned me. I’m in a 12 Step group Adult Children of Alcoholic and Dysfunctional Families. It goes to the core of this marriage dynamic! There are free online groups many times a day, all time zones. I’m in an online one and a local one. One thing I’ve learned is that I tolerate this awful marriage treatment because I feel like it’s mean to reject my husband due to his own childhood abuse. I saw him as trying hard but unable to be loving, so I needed to be patient. Like Beauty and the Beast. But that’s not good for any of us! He’s had enough years to shape up. And I had childhood abuse as bad or worse, but I don’t do these inhumane things. I’ve never been abusive to him. The standard should go both ways!!

Thanks LMM and HopelessRomantic ("HR"). If I'm reading all of this correctly HR, you're married to an abusive crossdresser who refuses to have sex with you. So what now? How can we as a community help you feel loved and appreciated...either with or without this toxic man? Thinking of you my friend. 

Last edited by Sean (March 15, 2022 4:51 am)

And one last question!

(I'm the same person as above)

What is the part of intimacy (apart from sexuality) between a man and a man that is the most different than between a man and a woman?

Thanks, again
All the best

Thank you for posting Gloria and LuvDogs. In response to LuvDogs' questions: 

1. Thanks for your openess, Sean. I appreciate your honesty and desire to share to those confused and looking for answers they may not be getting from their spouses.

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I too was a toxic husband/father while closeted.  

2. Jumping to it...Did you ever feel you were actually in love with your wife?

The short answer is no, I didn't love my wife. I loved her for the part she played in this pretend life I'd created as a "straight" man. I loved her as a beard, as cover, and as an enabler. However, once I came out and was accepted by my friends & family, I no longer needed her. So I moved on. I don't believe I truly loved her because we're no longer close and I really don't stay in touch with her. It's sad, tragic, and I regret misleading her. But that's my truth. I discussed all of this here S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath at around the 36 minute mark. I've been asked this question A LOT over the years. And I think it's because straight spouses want to feel like their marriages actually meant something...even if their husbands were questioning/closeted. Based on years of posting here, I believe that a closeted husband's (platonic) affection is conditional upon his wife remaining compliant, silent, and only if she does not question his sexuality. In my experience, the relationship turns abusive when the straight spouse dares to challenge him about his sexuality, their sexless marriage, and any gay porn/cheating because he needs to bully her back into submission/compliance. 

2. Did the validation you gave yourself for your authenticity (to yourself) ever cause you pain? Or was it more relief?

If you're referring to validation = coming out as a gay man, it was incredibly painful. Yes I was a toxic, manipulative narcissist, but deep down I still hated myself for coming out because it meant hurting my (then) wife and children. Initially it was a huge relief to come out to my friends & family, but I then had to work through the pain of separation/divorce. Telling my three children "mommy and I are divorcing" was by far the worst experience of my life and I assume it was the worst day of their lives as well. I digress. I reckon gay men who marry women and have children like I did will always have to live with two emotions: relief at finally coming out and yet lifelong regret for breaking up our families. 

3. Did you ever try to convince yourself it was other qualities about your wife you didn't like apart from sexuality?

That's a very good question. I should disclose that I am 100% gay with zero attraction to women, so there was never any sexual attraction during my gay/straight marriage. As far as qualities or personality traits that I didn't like about my wife, honestly I think I was the root cause of her: neediness; lack of self esteem; and controlling nature. As I shared in the above podcast, as a closeted man I made her feel like she was the cause of our relationship problems and, worse, that only she could fix it. The truth is, lying about and concealing my sexuality caused my break up and also eroded her emotional/mental stability. So saying that I didn't like her nagging would be wrong because I manipulated her to appear like the crazy one in our relationship because it helped hide my sexuality. I hope that makes sense on some level.  

4. And one last question! What is the part of intimacy (apart from sexuality) between a man and a man that is the most different than between a man and a woman?

Great question. I am firmly in the nature (born gay) rather than nurture (became gay) camp. On the rare occasions when people ask, "When did you choose to be gay?" I often retort: "When did you choose to be straight?" I knew I was attracted to boys/men starting around age 5, so I simply didn't know what it meant to be straight. Being gay is just who I am. With regards to intimacy, kissing my wife always felt forced, performative, and wrong. I've often said it felt like kissing my sister meaning that while there was affection, it always felt wrong somehow. I'm blathering on again so hopefully this example will help. My relationship with my girlfriend/wife always felt like a 50s-era black and white TV show (think the "Dick Van Dyke Show"), whereas my current relationship and intimacy with my boyfriend feels like an IMAX movie. Based on my exchanges here over the years, straight spouses go through something similar when they have sex with a straight man. The experience with a straight man just "clicks" or "feels right" and I'd say the same applies for me. Sex/intimacy with my (male) partner represents who I am. I hope that makes sense! 

Thanks again for your excellent questions friend. Please feel free to post again if my answers aren't clear. Be well!

Last edited by Sean (March 29, 2022 9:35 pm)