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March 11, 2022 2:47 pm  #1901


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for sharing friends. Below are my comments/replies. 

Rose wrote: 

1. Still thinking. Yes, I'm being too nice. But, I don't want a life full of hostility. And I think motive matters.

Understood. 

2. My husband is still in denial, lying to the world. But part of that is because he thinks he is supposed to: he thinks he is protecting me, and the family. I know, you are going to say that he's protecting himself and hurting the family...

Correct. 

3. and yes, that is true, too. It is also true that he is gay and also true that he is a human being who has worked very hard to support the family and take care of us as best as he is able -- with a lot of convoluted work-arounds, because he was born a gay man into a family and a world that made that an unacceptable person to be.

Fair comments. 

4. Many of my gay men friends credit their mothers for giving them the strength to be who they are. My husband did not have that mother. Her love is totally conditional, actually, it isn't even love. It is all about appearances, warped.

Serious question: who is the real victim in this marriage? I haven't read a lot about how you've suffered and how you're feeling at the moment. Your focus appears to be mostly on him. One of the common themes I've encountered both in my own gay/straight marriage and during countless exchanges with straight spouses is that HE is always the focus. HE'S always suffering the most, HE'S always the victim, and SHE always has to try harder. As I shared during a recent interview with a straight spouse, her husband is her abuser and remains highly abusive...despite all of his self-diagnosed and mealy-mouthed explanations. If a man punches me in the face in the street, I can rightfully focus on that violent act. I'm not going to delve into how my agressor's angry mom forced him to beat me up. So what's my point? I believe closeted husbands choose kind, caring, and completely selfless wives for a reason. It's because these spouses enable and/or explain away their totally unacceptable behaviour. When you take away his back story, he's just another dishonest and emotially abusive cheater. What's tragic about these relationships is that she believes, often to the bitter end, that she can some how will him to be a better man. Sadly, that rarely happens.     

5. So. I am going to have to get my son to a safe place - I agree that dad's closet is part of the problem, but Dad is also a major part of the solution, and I think we are going to get a scary diagnosis, maybe bipolar, maybe harder, from the hospital at the end of the month. Since the situation blew up, my husband has been working round the clock to help my troubled son.

Good. I'm happy he's acting like a father and I'm very sorry you and your sons are suffering. 

6. So. First things first, get son to safety, then gently restructure, in so far as I can control the gently.

You can't...but please come back and share how that works out. 

7. I want an honest life for myself, one in which I can breathe, but I do love the guy. And we got together in a very different world. Really hoping for a brighter future for a whole bunch of us.

Amen. 

8. Sean, thanks again - and by the way, are you too hard on yourself? 

It's certainly possible. 

9. What were your motives when you tried to play a role that was too hard?

At the very end, I was motivated by one thing: toxic self-centredness. 

10. I bet some were generous, too. It is hard to get unstuck when that means dismantling a family, and losing a person who has been a life partner for quite some time.  

I totally agree. Keep coming back friend. 

HopelessRomantic Wrote: 

1. Thank you so much for your in-depth response. Not at all what I was hoping to hear, but everything you said makes perfect sense... and yes, if my little sister came to me a few years from now and described herself in a relationship like mine I would tell her to leave him.

Ok so we're on the same page. 

2. I think abusive is a strong word. Toxic and dishonest are both fair statements... but I was in an abusive relationship for the entirety of high school, and this is not that. He has never raped me, he has never been violent with me or even threatened to do so. I have never feared for my life or safety with my husband. I do understand that being toxic or dishonest are still big problems on their own.

I hear you and apologize if I overstepped any boundaries. 

3. As for his involvement on forums, he does not know that I’ve seen that. I did a little snooping... not proud. I didn’t hack his accounts or snoop through his devices. I’ve only seen what he’s posted publicly on his reddit account. I don’t use reddit, and I’ve always been trusting so he had no reason to censor himself there. (That’s how I know he’s secretly been toying with the idea of being trans.)

Again these things are like icebergs...so please prepare yourself for the day you discover the remaining 9/10ths he's hidden from you. After all, he hid that's he's considering transitioning. If he's secretive with a possible transition, hides his devices, stays up late at night (alone) online, and takes a lot of revealing photos alone, I think he's swappin' more than cake recipes on the world wide web. You've been warned! 

4. I still don’t think he’s cheating (yet)...

Sigh. I'm going to assume that cheating is an emotional red line for you so let's leave that issue for now. However, with regards to his secrecy and dishonesty, I'm happy to quote you again: "...he’s secretly been toying with the idea of being trans." While you posted this rather casually, I personally believe it's a massive red flag that your husband is hiding: a. that he's seriously contemplating changing his sex; and b. that he hasn't discussed any of this with you, his wife. 

5...but from what I’ve seen you tell others, it sounds like that’s the next step so I will brace myself.

Be ready! 

6. There’s a bit of a disconnect between my head and heart right now, so I’m having a hard time accepting all this.

I know and I sincerely apologize if I've pushed too hard. 

7. You asked if he’s ever taken responsibility/blame, and he does. 

How? From what you've shared with me, it sounds like he's always the victim and/or claims everything is your fault. 

8. But it almost feels like martyrdom and I find myself consistently trying to defend him and shoulder half the blame. I’m pretty sure I’m being love-bombed right now.

If you're openly making noises about separation and divorce, there is a strong possibility that he's doing the bare minimum (such as oral sex) to trap you in the marriage again. 

9. I’m suspicious of his timing. The first time he chose to be ‘honest’ was on our honeymoon, while we were struggling with infertility. This time, it was right after I gave birth, struggling with either baby-blues or PPD and complications. Is that a common trend for GID? Are they really that cruel...

I'm not sure if it's cruelty. I reckon it's more like blindingly toxic self centredness. 

10...that they’d intentionally wait until we’re most vulnerable to start playing games with our heads, or is it just bad timing?

That is text book narcissism...perhaps something you should explore via coda.org or with a qualified mental health professional. 

Thank you both for sharing. Please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (March 12, 2022 5:10 am)

 

March 12, 2022 12:25 am  #1902


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Firstly Sean, thank you for posting, they are great to read, 'blindingly toxic self centredness'  rather than cruelty - it's a good distinction to think about.

Hopeless, I wanted to say something - I fell for the same thing of feeling well I'm not being physically abused and he's so nice.  Well I see it now the same way there's passive aggression as well as aggression there's passive abuse.  it's just as deadly in the long run.  at least if you are being physically hit you know to leave. 

It's like you know you've been abused by the bruises you have - being made to feel unattractive is really painful and wrong with worse heaped on top as you take the blame for it.

 

March 12, 2022 9:13 am  #1903


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Lily, this comment about passive abuse made big lightbulbs for off for me! It’s SO helpful to have a label that fits my experience. He starved me emotionally, but if he starved me physically I would have left right away. He did crueler things with his words than call me names or say outright, red-flag comments. I’ve been through deep rejection and scapegoating from my family, his mom, many of our Evangelical church “friends” and of course sometimes I cried or vented my hurt feelings. It was far worse for him to shrug and give a disgusted look at me when a true, connected husband (or even friend!) would have given a warm hug to comfort me. That killed my soul worse than the actual behavior from others that prompted my pain.

I’ve had a few therapy sessions since deciding to divorce him, and the trauma is really evident now. This is the same therapist who saw me a few years ago when I didn’t know he was gay or that he was facilitating this abuse and scapegoating from our families/church. I believe God set up this beautiful safety net for me so when he came out to me I’d have one trusted person who can really help me recover. I’m going to mention this idea of passive abuse to her. Maybe do some journaling and art around it! I see it like him setting up traps and sharp things around me, then beckoning me to come to his open arms for affection - but he’s luring me into the sharp traps so I always fall over bleeding and crying before I reach him. And then he gets to look disgusted and say, “What are you doing?! You’re so stupid and clumsy. THIS is why we never have sex and I can’t support you. I try to hug you and then you go into crazy victim mode like your mom.”

 

March 12, 2022 9:32 am  #1904


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean, your podcast interview on SSN continues to be helpful for us! Last week my husband told me he listened to it again and saw more similarities to his own behaviors and motivations. He’s able to name and own up to things he did even more. His therapy is helping with that, too.

He has one friend and told that friend right at the beginning of this coming out about our divorce and why it’s happening. The friend remained sort of supportive but kept making comments to us that marriage is a serious vow before God, and we shouldn’t give up. So he sent that interview link to the friend, who listened and told us both, “If your situation is anything at all like this, I understand. Divorce is right. I didn’t have any idea how hard this has been and you guys are doing the right thing.”

It was so good for me to have this support, as this friend is also a trusted and valued person to me. I don’t know if anything we said could have opened his eyes like that!

 

March 12, 2022 1:41 pm  #1905


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thanks for writing LMM. While I won't comment on your message to Lily, but I'm happy to respond to your last post to me: 

1. Sean, your podcast interview on SSN continues to be helpful for us! Last week my husband told me he listened to it again and saw more similarities to his own behaviors and motivations. He’s able to name and own up to things he did even more. His therapy is helping with that, too.

Progress! Thanks for the shout out but I reckon you're also setting clear boundaries with your future ex-husband since you decided to divorce...meaning you're no longer buying his particular line of bullsh*t. 

2. He [closeted husband] has one friend and told that friend right at the beginning of this coming out about our divorce and why it’s happening.

I believe this might be the same friend you mentioned during our interview (LMM/Charlotte interview link: https://cutt.ly/RABYaP5). If yes, I believe this is the first person your future ex-husband apparently came out to. Am I correct? 

3. The friend remained sort of supportive but kept making comments to us that marriage is a serious vow before God, and we shouldn’t give up.

I'd suggest repeating to yourself the following mantra: "believe, but verify." If I remember correctly, during our interview you gave your husband a 2/10 on the honesty scale; with 0/10 being pathological dishonesty and 10/10 being Jesus-like honesty. In my opinion, this scale applies to everything he tells you, such as opinions of people who coincidentally support his belief that you two need to remain married. He's more than capable of manipulating others because closeted/questioning husbands are so practiced at it. So I'd suggest you identify his opinion (we need to stay together), believe but verify everything that he tells you, and continue to apply your own scale that about 20% of what he tells you is accurate...with 80% being fake/dishonest/manipulative.   

4. So he sent that interview link to the friend, who listened and told us both, “If your situation is anything at all like this, I understand. Divorce is right. I didn’t have any idea how hard this has been and you guys are doing the right thing.”

Good! Question: is your husband still fighting to stay married to you? If yes, I'm glad you had direct contact with this friend who now agrees that you should divorce. In future, I'd encourage you to write down any "_____ told me" or "_______ thinks" statements by your future ex-husband so that you can independently verify what he's saying while also applying your honesty scale that 80% of what he's saying is dishonest, manipulative, or just flat-out bullsh*t. While I don't want to frighten you, if your husband remains terrified by divorce, as you move forward he's going to ramp up the lies, abuse/bullying, manipulations, and guilt trips to try to trap you back in your toxic relationship. This is why I believe it's important to document and verify everything he says and does.   

5. It was so good for me to have this support, as this friend is also a trusted and valued person to me. I don’t know if anything we said could have opened his eyes like that!

I'm glad you're gaining support. Thanks for sharing friend and thank you again for agreeing to do an interview with me (LMM/Charlotte interview link: https://cutt.ly/RABYaP5). Please keep coming back. 

Last edited by Sean (March 12, 2022 3:49 pm)

 

March 12, 2022 5:17 pm  #1906


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean,
A lot has been shifting the past few weeks. He’s very settled about divorce, actually dealing with fears of loneliness with his therapist and journal, not putting that on me anymore. I stopped catering to his victim playing, and that turned things around! For instance, he was phrasing it as, “You’re ending our marriage and I have to be loving and respect your wish to leave me.” I got the gumption to retort, “Let’s remember why I wanted to end the marriage! I was trying to be married and you were not in it. You did things to hurt me in ways that will take years of recovery! So don’t put ending the marriage on me!” It felt AMAZING to say things like that whenever he played the victim.

Our friend was telling both of us the “save the marriage” views, so I definitely heard it for myself. I’ve talked to him more often than my husband has. But yes, in situations where I’m not hearing something I never give 100% credit to what he says anymore. Not since the interview with you. That’s been a good steadying idea as I become independent.

I have some grief and anxiety about his upcoming moving day. But it’s more related to my own personal insecurities. I’ve always had a husband or dad in my home. The old evangelical ideas still haunt me, saying you’re unprotected and open to demons if you’re without that manly authority in the home. Then I laugh at that fear, thinking how awful those men were to me! It’s good to be without them in my case.

 

March 12, 2022 10:21 pm  #1907


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

What does the phrase: “I love you but I can’t give you what you deserve” imply? Am I overthinking that he might be gay and can’t be in a romantic relationship with me? He ended our otherwise good relationship by saying that with no further explanation. Do you think if he was really questioning his sexuality, he would’ve admitted that to me during the break up? Or was this enough of a hint.

 

March 13, 2022 1:25 am  #1908


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thanks for posting friends. In reply: 

1. LMM wrote: Sean, A lot has been shifting the past few weeks. He’s very settled about divorce, actually dealing with fears of loneliness with his therapist and journal, not putting that on me anymore. I stopped catering to his victim playing, and that turned things around!

Well done! Setting boundaries with the closeted husband and, most importantly, making those boundaries clear is so important.  

2. For instance, he was phrasing it as, “You’re ending our marriage and I have to be loving and respect your wish to leave me.” I got the gumption to retort, “Let’s remember why I wanted to end the marriage! I was trying to be married and you were not in it. You did things to hurt me in ways that will take years of recovery! So don’t put ending the marriage on me!” It felt AMAZING to say things like that whenever he played the victim.

Again, well played. Closeted/questioning husbands love to play the victim when long-suffering straight wives start to push back. Most often it sounds like, "I was sexually abused and that made me gay!" when she starts making noises about separation/divorce. This behaviour is a bit like an aggressor saying, "Yes I punched you but you hurt my fist with your face!"  

3. Our friend was telling both of us the “save the marriage” views, so I definitely heard it for myself. I’ve talked to him more often than my husband has. But yes, in situations where I’m not hearing something I never give 100% credit to what he says anymore. Not since the interview with you. That’s been a good steadying idea as I become independent.

To paraphrase Judge Judy, "You know how you can tell that a closeted husband is lying? His mouth is moving." Here again is that interview link: LMM/Charlotte interview link: https://cutt.ly/RABYaP5. As I wrote in my previous post, whenever your closeted husband starts spouting off about anything, particularly as you move towards separation/divorce, do the following: believe; write it down; then independently verify. It's not that closeted/questioning husbands are bad people, it's just that we don't speak a language called truth while closeted/semi-closeted. Truth just isn't a language we understand. 

4. I have some grief and anxiety about his upcoming moving day.

Of course! This is a big step for both you and your children. 

5. But it’s more related to my own personal insecurities. I’ve always had a husband or dad in my home. The old evangelical ideas still haunt me, saying you’re unprotected and open to demons if you’re without that manly authority in the home. Then I laugh at that fear, thinking how awful those men were to me! It’s good to be without them in my case.

Once he's out of the house, I'm confident that you'll be seeing things much more clearly. This will also give your children the possibility to heal and, most importantly, your future ex-husband can heal...on his own. BUT I'd be prepared for the next phase: gay adolescence. If he follows a common path, your future ex-husband is now furiously trying to find a boyfriend/partner. So I'd be prepared for 1-3 years of teen-like boy-crazy behaviour. Good luck! 

6. Carnation wrote: ​What does the phrase: “I love you but I can’t give you what you deserve” imply?

Just that I assume. 

7. Am I overthinking that he might be gay and can’t be in a romantic relationship with me? He ended our otherwise good relationship by saying that with no further explanation.

I'm afraid that I still don't have enough information to determine if he's gay/bisexual my friend. Sorry. 

8. Do you think if he was really questioning his sexuality, he would’ve admitted that to me during the break up? Or was this enough of a hint.

Based on my exchanges here, most closeted/questioning husbands don't come out to their straight wives, particularly when he's an Evangelical Christian or comes from an anti-gay family. I'm sorry I can't provide more insight my friend but I just don't have enough information. Be well!   

 

March 13, 2022 4:22 pm  #1909


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

LMM

I see it like him setting up traps and sharp things around me, then beckoning me to come to his open arms for affection - but he’s luring me into the sharp traps so I always fall over bleeding and crying before I reach him. And then he gets to look disgusted and say, “What are you doing?! You’re so stupid and clumsy. THIS is why we never have sex and I can’t support you. I try to hug you and then you go into crazy victim mode like your mom.”

In my early 40's I had a series of vivid dreams, this is one of them, it's just so much the same feelings you are talking about -

It's twilight and I have been left on top of a hill in a cage.  X approaches with a group of our friends behind him.  They are concerned for me but he turns to them and says look and he comes up to the cage he has food in his hand and he offers it to me.  I have retreated to the back of the cage.  But he cajoles me and I am hungry.  I go to take the food and with his hidden hand he jabs me with a stick and I jump back howling and snarling.  Look, he says turning to his friends, see how she treats me.  

 

March 14, 2022 11:08 am  #1910


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

lily wrote:

Firstly Sean, thank you for posting, they are great to read, 'blindingly toxic self centredness'  rather than cruelty - it's a good distinction to think about.

Hopeless, I wanted to say something - I fell for the same thing of feeling well I'm not being physically abused and he's so nice.  Well I see it now the same way there's passive aggression as well as aggression there's passive abuse.  it's just as deadly in the long run.  at least if you are being physically hit you know to leave. 

It's like you know you've been abused by the bruises you have - being made to feel unattractive is really painful and wrong with worse heaped on top as you take the blame for it.

Lily,

You made some fair points. I have a tendency to try to minimize problems in my relationships. Things could always be worse. I believe most people aren’t malicious, and since I want forgiveness and understanding when I make mistakes, I try very very hard to offer it to others... especially my loved ones. But there is a difference between forgiving and excusing behaviors... and I need to stop doing the latter.

 

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