Thanks for writing Epiphany. In reply: 

1. Hi again. My husband did recently start taking a stronger interest in his body over the past year, on and off with an increase towards the end of November/December which coincides with the timing of him seriously contemplating meeting up in real life with men he met via Facebook.

Ok. Most gay men hook up using phone apps like Grindr, Hornet, or Scruff. They're like Tinder, but for sex. The telltale sign a husband is on these apps would be a lot of naked or nearly-naked selfies. 

2. Which reminds me of another question I had. He says that he would find these guys based on their reactions to underwear ads...message them and eventually they would move to Snapchat. He said he was invited to private Facebook pages where they would basically share fantasies. Do you know of these groups? Manscape is something that pops up on his feed and one night I discovered there was a secret group called Manscape ballers. I tried to join but haven’t been accepted, just curious if this is one of those groups.

No I don't know of these FB groups. 

3. I now have full access to his phone and can see he is no longer apart of any of these groups or friends with any of these guys on any social media platform.

Ok. Please keep your eye out for a second, secret phone. 

4. I still firmly believe that my husband has truly been bisexual based on our history but yes, trying to figure out if he’s now gone too far down that path and will not be able to come back. I understand your approach to honesty and it helps keep my eyes open but after being together for 21 years, this process deserves time. I’m already in the grieving process of what  we had. I literally go through just about every step, every day...anger, denial, bargaining, acceptance, depression and whatever else...shock and mania happen with each new hurtful truth.

That's fair.

5. Also, I really haven’t pushed for the STD tests like everyone suggests. I will revisit that idea again but since I haven’t pushed it’s unfair to say he is refusing. I do believe he would get one if I asked. We haven’t found a free clinic so it’s going to cost over $100 and I think we both don’t love that idea.

There seem to be a lot of barriers to the STD test which leads me to conclude that there is something else at play. I'm going to stop pushing this because clearly neither of you are quite ready for this step...nor dealing with the potential consequences. I suggest we revisit this topic and others in 60 days. 

6. Yes, no penis to vagina since 2017 but he did want to the night we experimented.

Tragic. You deserve so much better. 

7. Also, he is not blaming me for his ED...

I disagree but again let's revisit this in a few months. 

8. ...but stating that he was insecure to try with me because of it. It could be a cover or it could be truth, most likely a bit of both.

I vote "cover." I see we're still not talking about ED medication which is a huge red flag. 

9. Many of your points are very insightful. I do think it’s hard to understand our relationship because I do feel it is slightly different than your own experience. However there are many similarities as well. I do think we will learn more via counseling. I do not believe he will hide things as much but it just may take more time for him, and us both to face certain truths.

100% agree. 

10. We do have a deep love for each other. Yes he’s hurt me and has apologized several times but I get what you are saying about the difference between a straight relationship and MOM.

We've all tried MOMs so no judgement here. 

11. A straight relationship it would be much easier for him to tell me the things I wish he could...like that I’m enough, his everything, he wants only me etc...he’s being honest that he needs to figure himself out though. I’m bracing for bad news but cannot completely shut myself to him if we are still trying to work this out.

Understood. 

12. It’s a delicate balance and yes, it’s torture. I’m looking forward to the day I have more answers, whatever they be.

Good luck and please check in again whenever you like! Take care. 

Good luck with your counselling appointment my friend. I hope that I'm completely wrong about your husband, that you reconcile, and have a happy marriage. But I hope that you also remain open to the possibility of separation/divorce, if and when it becomes clear that your husband will simply never be the man you need. The goal for all of us here - whether gay, straight, or bisexual - is to find partners who truly make us feel loved and cherished. I hope your journey takes you there. Please keep coming back and sharing.     

Last edited by Sean (February 9, 2021 10:04 pm)

Good day friends. I'm going to comment on a recent post, even though it wasn't posted here and I'm happy to explain why. As I've shared in previous posts, my purpose here and the main focus of this thread is to help straight spouses in broken and emotionally abusive relationships detach (with love) from gay-in-denial (GID) spouses, separate, divorce, and find happiness. When a straight spouse first posts here, I always recommend that she focus on her physical and mental heath first: 

1. Get tested for STDs/STIs (like HIV, herpes, chlamydia etc) 
2. Tell your husband to get tested for the same STDs/STIs
3. Only practice safe sex with her husband by using condoms 
4. Start individual therapy

To borrow a phrase from Judge Judy, when a closeted husband's mouth is moving, he's lying: about his sexuality; about his cheating; and about what he truly wants. In the 5+ years that I've been posting here, I've discovered a pattern in gay/straight marriages. And that pattern is: 

Stage 1: Her first impression is "he's gay"; they start off as friends; and the eventual dating relationship isn't sexual. Most of her friends and family also believe he is gay. 
Stage 2: Their sexless wedding night or honeymoon is her first big disappointment. 
Stage 3: She always initiates sex and during sex he seems distant/detached. She doubts herself. They have kids and sex becomes even more infrequent. 
Stage 4: First discovery of gay porn, sex toys, or chats/emails with men. He minimizes ("It's nothing!"). 
Stage 5: Now in their early 40s, the couple no longer has regular sex. Once again, she catches him watching gay porn, cheating, or chatting with gay men online. He promises to stop. 
Stage 6: The straight spouse suffers from insomnia, depression, or other forms of stress-induced mental health problems. She starts posting here. 
Stage 7: She finds overwhelming proof of gay sexual activity. Trapped, he says he's "bisexual" or "might not be straight." He may also claim that sexual abuse made him gay. Therapy begins....most often couples' therapy. The couple reconciles, a 'honeymoon' period begins, and the focus then becomes becomes the husband's sexuality. The marriage therapist often suggests an open marriage.  
Stage 8: The couple reconciles and a MOM (mixed-orientation marriage) begins. The wife grudgingly accepts threesomes (husband + wife + 1 man) or may even allow her husband to "date" other men.  
Stage 9: The MOM lasts 1-2 years, the straight wife's mental health issues get worse, and the marriage deteriorates.  
Stage 10: The couple separates and then divorces. 

The above isn't a "one-size-fits-all" but it does fit the pattern I've seen during my 5+ years posting here. Let's now turn to a straight spouse who is about to begin stage 8: a mixed orientation marriage. She shared: 

Stage 8: The couple reconciles and a MOM (mixed-orientation marriage) begins. The wife grudgingly accepts threesomes (husband + wife + 1 man) or may even allow her husband to "date" other men.  

1. Hi all. For anyone who’s been following my situation, I just wanted to offer an update. It’s been a whirlwind and we aren’t sure we like our couples counselor but we are making headway. Two biggest issues at hand. Looking at whether my husband is Bisexual or Gay (he still is adamant about being bisexual and having a pendulum but having unmet needs) and whether monogamy is for him (our counselor is pushing us to consider pologamy which neither of us want, we are waiting to see if she changes her tune). So counselor felt a bit off/pushy in the wrong direction for us but the session did lead us to having deeper more honest conversations.

All of us have tried a form of MOM and my own tragic gay/straight marriage lasted a painful 18 months. So I am not going to criticize the above member for doing everything possible to save her marriage. Whether gay or straight, I reckon we've all been there. In my experience, there is often a "honeymoon" period between stages 7 or 8. It's during this stage that the closeted husband makes a half-assed effort to save his relationship, which often includes him attempting intimacy. After decades of lies, emotional abuse, and sexual starvation, the straight wife is understandably thrilled...even with what amounts to just a few crumbs.    

2. Things are looking up in that my husband and I are on the same exact page currently. He has given me full access to his phone, installed life 360, is going to the Dr for ED [erectile dysfunction] issues, making counseling appointments for us and talking very VERY openly about EVERYTHING.

I've seen this "pink cloud" before. The straight wife suddenly experiences a kind of euphoria or elation, not unlike what addicts feel in the first weeks of recovery. After all, the couple is finally working together, talking about their problems, and he's focusing on her! She feels elated because he actually sees her. But then...

3. We have turned our focus towards seeing if certain things in the bedroom will help him quench his thirst but I have also told him I am open to a threesome.

This is where things often go wrong. Attention: if you and your husband are planning to have a threesome, please ensure that you both get tested for STIs and insist that the other man - because it's always another man with closeted gay husbands - has been tested as well. During the threesome, only practice safe sex. Please also keep in mind that you can say yes/no to the threesome right up until the last second and even during. If for any reason you do not feel comfortable, just say "no" to your husband and leave. On a related point, I've seen this before and in gay/straight marriages, the threesome is never two women and one man. It's always two men and one woman. Additionally, most straight wives are horrified when they discover: a. how quickly their husbands set up a "date" (usually in less than a week); b. how excited their husbands are about the threesome (more than he was ever excited about sex with his spouse); c. how much he enjoys having sex with a man; and d. how experienced he seems with male-on-male sex. I hope that the above member will check back in after her threeway happens. 

4. Before you freak out, please know that I AM truly and honestly open to a threesome and actually am feeling very sexually empowered right now with our new found intimacy (and I’m talking about it on all levels... The most important being emotional). I’ve told my husband that if at any point he feels that his desire to be with a man is stronger than being able to handle it in these ways to please be open.

There are two possible scenarios here: a. Positive: she thoroughly enjoys watching her husband "play" with other men and the couple truly reconnects by spicing up their sex life through the addition of new partners, toys, videos, role-playing etc.; b. Negative: she's the third wheel, or what I call the "hetero anchor," to what is clearly just another gay hookup for her husband. By hetero anchor, I mean her presence allows her gay husband to maintain the myth that he's somehow bisexual rather than 100% gay. At the very least, a threeway will give the straight wife irrefutable proof of whether her husband is gay or not. 

5. I’m mainly looking to see if he’s wanting a love/emotional connection or just sex. Sex we can handle with a threesome, and just being more open and honest. If he’s looking for a complete side relationship (pologamy)...I’m out. We may decide to live with each other and have separate partners for a short time but that is not sustainable to me for the long run.

I applaud this member for clearly stating her boundaries. That takes courage. What I disagree with is this conversion-therapy-inspired-Christian-Evangelical-bible-thumping bullsh*t that somehow men aren't gay if they don't want an emotional connection with another man. (I've sometimes referred to this as men who are "emotionally" straight and yet "sexually" gay.) The stage 8 logic goes something like this: "My husband isn't gay if he only wants blowjobs, anal sex, and orgasms with a man. But if he wants to date or marry a man, I'm out." For me personally, this is a bit like asking someone who is eating a Snickers bar if they really like chocolate. Of course they f*cking like chocolate if they're chomping down on a bloody Snickers bar...that's why they're f*cking eating chocolate! To an outsider, it's obvious but gay/straight marriage logic is sometimes fuzzy. Perhaps due to an understandable fear of separation/divorce, the pink goalposts are always moving in gay/straight relationships. The evolution goes from: I'd never stay with a man who: watches porn; ok so now he can't watch gay porn; then ok he can't interact with gay men through live chats; ok so now he can't do cam shows for other gay men; then ok so now I wouldn't stay with someone who trades blowjobs with other men; then ok now he can't have sex with men; then ok so he can't have sex with other gay men because the first guy was married to a woman and had to be straight; then ok so now it's more like my husband can't have "emotionally-connected gay sex with another man." and on and on it goes. My point: if you want to have sex with a man, you are gay. If you're a straight spouse who buys into the "being gay is a choice" bullsh*t, in no time you'll find yourself choosing to sit on the edge of some stained motel bed watching your husband get pegged by another man and clearly loving it. In fact, during the "non-emotional" threeway, she's horrified to see her husband displaying a passion for d*ck he never had for her lady parts. Let's hope things are more successful with this member's husband, but I doubt it's going to end well. Moving on....

6. The good news is I think I’m through the hardest part.

Nope. I reckon the hardest part will be negotiating what your husband can and cannot do with his new sex friend, buying anal lube, watching him blow another guy, then watching him get penetrated by another man, and finally dealing with the emotional fallout of it all.  

7. I/we actually know how we want to move forward. Currently it’s with hope that we can figure this out and stay married happily. If I don’t post on here as much for awhile it probably means we’re in a good spot. If shit hits the fan, I’m sure I’ll update you!! 

Please do and please please please play safely. And that means: STI testing for everyone; your husband understands that you alone get to decide whether you go forward with this or not; and he should confirm consent with you throughout; and only safe sex (condoms). 

8. At least I know what I am potentially dealing with as far as my future, steps on how to find answers and no more lies for awhile. (Knock on wood). 

Good luck my friend. Although I can come across as b*tchy and glib, I truly hope that you find happiness, either with or without your husband. Please keep coming back. Be well. 

Last edited by Sean (February 15, 2021 4:30 pm)

Julian,
   People minimize their partner's same-sex attraction (e.g., "penis play")  because there's a boatload of rationalizing and denial at work.  

Sean wrote:

 
So what's my point? Eventually, the straight spouse looks for and finds overwhelming proof that he's gay. Some straight spouses start to rationalize their husband's homosexuality in terms he's used such as, "He was only on the receiving end of a blowjob..." or "He had sex with a guy once...but it didn't mean anything..." or "He's acting out [f*cking men] because he was molested as a child..." Then the cycle repeats and when she's seriously considering separation/divorce I start to read things like, "Yes he's had sex with men for years but he doesn't want a relationship with another man." It's all conversion-therapy-Christian "It's a choice" bullsh*t. 

 

Good point. There probably is a lot of regurgitation going on....but it doesn't seem to be religiously driven in most cases I've come across (but maybe it's not clear to me...the conversion therapy connection you're making)

In many cases, I think it's more a survival mechanism (I may be making up or manipulating terms here)...Early on, I landed on this subreddit geared toward bisexuals. It was mostly men...but there were several straight wives active in the sub. MANY had 3-4 children and left the workforce long ago to care for them...so they were in very vulnerable positions when their husbands "came out" (often with a request to open the relationship) or were found out...so I can sort of understand why some minimize it as "just sex." I began chatting (privately) with one of the straight wives. And even though her sex life had increasingly become her playing the part of a man in bed, she continued to describe her husband as "mostly straight...with a penis fetish" or "heteroflexible."