Thanks Stronger. In reply: 

1. Thanks Sean. I’ll admit, I wasn’t ready for your reply the first time but things are making more sense to me now. My husband still denies that he has done anything more than self sex (with his toys) and, while some of that lines up, much of it does not.

I agree. 

2. His seating partner was a man, but in a different country so I know the most they did was by text/photo/video.

"Virtual" is still cheating in my book.

3. The toys being in his car have bothered me from the beginning... he claims it is because he did not want anyone in our family to find them which is an okay excuse but it always made me feel like he had easy access by keeping them in the car.

100% agree. 

4. With covid right now and my awareness of his behaviors, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have a sexual partner right now but I suspect that he has had a few and is still unwilling/unable to tell me about them. Whatever, it is obvious he practices safe sex...

Ok. I'm not sure he deserves bonus points for practicing safe sex while cheating on you. Again, you deserve so much better. 

5. So, my current question is more about me understanding... I agree that my husband sounds like a submissive bottom with a high sex drive... but he is adamant that he hasn’t done anything sexual with another man.

I think he's lying. 

6. I’m coming to realize that gay men enjoy sexual toy play with each other.... so I’m just seeking verification. Perhaps it doesn’t feel like cheating if it’s not a body part... (that being said, I’m not believing there haven’t been full body encounters) So, could the bag of toys be something he uses with “friends”?

Anything is possible my friend. My question to you and other straight spouses is: what difference does it make? Not too long ago, a straight spouse decided her husband's two-year sexual relationship with another man wasn't really cheating because he claimed he didn't want "an emotional" relationship with a man. It's not unusual for the goalposts to keep moving because, deep down, neither the straight spouse nor her philandering husband are quite ready to accept their fake marriage is over. There is often a denial or bargaining stage after most emotional shocks such as learning your husband is gay. So what's my point? For me personally, I don't think it really matters if your husband is shoving dildos up his *ss, another man is doing the shoving, or perhaps he's putting on little cam shows online. The facts appear to remain unchanged: your husband is no longer having sex with you; he continues to lie and minimize; he's doing hard-core drugs (poppers); and clearly has an entirely different "gay" sexual existence online. Whether he's shoving a sex toy or a real penis up his *ss are the least of your worries my friend...because he's going to extraordinary lengths to do these things with other men, all while hiding it from you. All of this screams "gay gay gay" to me. 

7. I think I already know the answer... I think my husband is into kink, bondage, puppy dog, etc. Thanks for the insight.

Ok. 

8. Oh, and while I cannot confirm that his first gay encounter coincides with our lack of sexual activity, I think so... I am starting to suspect it might even have been before then. I also think he didn’t really know but that he’s probably had inclinations all of his life. You referenced “show choir gay” the other day and it struck a chord here... so true.

When straight spouses first start posting here, they often spend their first few months or perhaps even a year trying desperately to answer the question: "Is my husband gay?" Strangely they look to their husbands for answers, even when their husbands are clearly incapable of honestly answering such a simple question. I reckon there comes a point in most gay/straight relationship where the straight spouse focuses on the basics: the facts; how she feels; and how all of this is affecting her and her children. 

I reckon your definitions of love and marriage don't include a husband/father secretly driving around town with a big ol' bag of dildos, sniffing poppers, and putting on sexy cam shows for men online. You deserve better! 

Last edited by Sean (January 21, 2021 3:40 am)

Thank you for posting MyExodus. In reply: 

1. I will save you the keystrokes. ;-)  I know that you do not have mental health training; but your personal experience from the other side has been a good counsel to me.  You may not be licensed to give legal counsel; but your personal experience would be appreciated.  Your perspective in this thread, as well as other people's stories in the SSN forum have helped me keep my sanity during this isolating pandemic. 

Glad to have helped but I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. 

2. I have posted my saga in Our Stories.  BTW, Show Choir should have been a red flag as well.  (Face Palm) 

From your lips to God's ears my friend! 

3. Since posting my story my STBX [soon to be ex-husband] and I have had several open conversations in which he has revealed all (yeah, I know there probably is more) that I need to know that gives me just cause to divorce him.  Hand jobs and BJs with men before we were married were revealed. 

He's likely done much more but at least he's given you some information.

4. Since we have been married, viewing gay porn in booths at gay cinemas during business trips in the middle of the night were brought to light as was the return of gay porn and chat rooms.  He tells me he only made contact with men two times, through clothes; but he only told me what I "needed to know" before to keep from hurting me. 

He's lying. Minimization is part of the closeted husband's script. 

5. Quite honestly, I don't care what else there is anymore; I have all the information I need to make my decisions now.  At 51 years-old, I am starting my life over.  I am making lemonade out of lemons; so I am looking at the pending divorce day as my new birthday. 

Onward! 

6. I just don't get my virginity card back though.

Funny! 

7. We had a stint at conversion therapy, couples therapy early in the marriage and now that I have said divorce he is back to therapy for himself.  He is GID [gay in denial] and will not likely come out of the closet willingly... 

If your husband is also in his 50s and was raised religious - an assumption based on the conversion therapy reference - you'll likely never hear "I'm gay." But at this point it doesn't sound like it will influence your decision to divorce. If he follows the normal gay husband script, once he understands you are truly serious about divorce, he will likely: 

- Try to romance you again and perhaps resume intimacy (called a 'honeymoon' phase)
- Make claims that he was sexually abused (if he didn't already make these claims in conversion therapy)
- Bully or manipulate you into staying 
- Fake suicide 

8. But our 13 year-old daughter has figured out an awful lot during the pandemic that she's not directly telling me.  She hints a lot; but will not come out and say it.  She may be the one who outs him.  I hate that she's in that place.  This all makes for a really crappy chump sandwich. 

Your poor daughter. Kids are quite technologically savvy these days so I can only assume that she's seen dad's hook up profile, dirty photos, or found his "naughty" collection of toys/underwear. I'd urge you to take your daughter to see a qualified child psychologist so that she can unburden herself with someone safe. Right now she's likely staying tight-lipped because she doesn't want to be responsible for outing her dad and thereby causing her parents to divorce. I'd get her professional help as soon as possible.  

9. I was wondering if you could, or anyone else for that matter, suggest any items that I should ask for in the divorce settlement.   I have gleaned from others in this forum that a no cohabitation clause would be a good idea in case he does decide to come out and wants to have sleepovers.  I have read what you have said about gay adolescence and I don't want my 12 and 13 year-old daughters to get hurt by that. 

You'll have to discuss all of this with a qualified attorney. If your husband follows the typical gay husband script, once you divorce he'll probably go through a "slut phase" lasting a few months or perhaps a couple of years. During the first 6-12 months, he'll likely find some "soulmate" and may even try to introduce this person to your kids. While you can't completely control who he's sleeping with, you might explore some restrictions on introducing a new "dad" for at least the first 18-24 months post-divorce. While all cases are different, I myself stopped acting like a "screaming Menudo fangirl" roughly two years post-divorce. 

10. I have toyed with the idea of a no sexual media clause to eliminate chat rooms and porn; but I don't know how I would, and wouldn't want to, police that.  I thought it might give my daughter's/me legal footing if they see it happening and we report it???  Do you have any other ideas as it pertains to the SSA [same sex attraction]?  Any input would be appreciated.  Thank you for sharing your story.

I don't think you'll be able to control, nor do you want to police, his online habits. And he'd just work around it anyway. My advice: focus on who he can introduce to the kids post-divorce rather than what he's doing online. Put bluntly, he's likely been watching gay porn on the down low in the family home for most of your relationship so he's become quite the expert at hiding it. Please note that I'm not suggesting gay men are damaged sex/porn addicts and pedophiles. What I'm sharing is that like attracts like in relationships. Post-divorce, your husband will likely be a broken man so he'll attract other broken men. They're not bad people per se, they're just drowning emotionally. So it will probably take roughly 2-3 years for your husband to get his sh*t together (emotionally-speaking) and then he'll be ready to introduce a normal Mr. Right to your girls. 

I hope that helps in some way my friend. Please post again if I haven't answered your questions. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (January 27, 2021 12:36 pm)

Hi Sean,  I posted this on another thread but in hindsight my ranting was posted to the wrong area of this forum.     I've seen you posting and giving your insight to the gay men that have been in straight marriages. 
Here's my vent. I'm in a much better place mentally now compared to this time last year but this entire issue still continues to haunt me at times!  Here's a very short summary of my marriage.

I've been divorced almost a year come this March.  41/38 married, we dated in high school!  My ex is in the worst sub class!!!  HE ADMITS TO NOTHING and I mean NOTHING!   I've not caught him red handed in fact it wasn't until he decided he wanted an "amicable" divorce haha ..that too was B.S.!!!!!    .....and unbeknownst to him that is when HE opened HIS PANDORA's box!    I will not give him the satisfaction of what  (ALL) I have on his lying deceptive ass!!!  He has ALWAYS been a very private person!  
During our marriage I always excused his moody distant, indifferent behavior on his very sad dysfunctional childhood!   Now I know better WOW what a mind twist this has turned into!
What's so disheartening is while our youngest son was battling drug addiction and still alive he tried to tell me who his father was and I did not believe him!  I never mentioned a word to my ex back then.  At that time I really did think my son was trying to manipulate and distract me because he was high!  Fast forward!!!.....  NOW I know better!  I had a friend tell me during my divorce " NO" your son was not manipulating you.  Your son was able to tell you because he WAS so HIGH!   Wow I had never looked at it in that light!  Finally my sweet son has been vindicated and boy does my heart grieve!  MY GRIEF ISN'T FOR MY MARRIAGE BUT FOR MY SON !!!!
It's not who my now ex IS, it's his conduct and to see his lack of integrity!!!! HE is all about his own self preservation!!!!   My dumb ass attorney (that's another story) requested only one year of his phone records, too bad we hadn't requested 2 years, but that's okay.  I did have bank and credit card statements; and although he wasn't caught red handed it told me enough!   That last couple of years of our marriage he had turned into a complete GAY LIGHTING ASS!!!   He became even more moody, distant, intolerant, self indulgent and we were no longer traveling together, he was choosing to travel by himself!!!   Like I said I wished I'd of had one more year of his cell phone records. 
I look back now and I can't believe how naive and submissive a team playing wife I was all the years of our dysfunctional marriage!!!  We did a lot of traveling back in the day and the last 2.5 years of our marriage it became less and less. Here I thought he was maintaining his Delta sky miles "god forbid" he lose his Platinum status!!!  WELL DAMN THAT COVID SURE HAS PUT A HALT TO HIS PLATINUM STATUS!   
I rarely held him accountable and the few times I did it wasn't well received! 
The beginning of 2019 it was apparent the big black SNOW BALL was heading our way and clearly divorce was on the horizon!   I was finally pushing back a bit and becoming a bit braver and not biting my tongue when arguing with him.... I know that fueled his fire!!   Towards the end of our marriage I couldn't say one word to him without him being triggered and having it turn into an argument!  He used every opportunity to distance himself from me....unless he was in need of something!!!
Looking at his 2019 phone entries I do think he was trying hard to behave while he was pushing himself to finally GROW SOME BALLS and push the divorce switch!  During the divorce discovery in OCT.  I was deep diving like a mad lady reviewing his phone records from earlier that year.  Besides phone calls to massage therapists he had made a one minute call to the WORTHINGTON GUEST HOUSE in Ft. Lauderdale.  Granted it was only a (1) minute call but I don't care, he called the number!!   Oh and how about the massages?  He loves body massages and Male Pelvic body massages.  He loved long weekend trips to San Francisco and Seattle and while he was there of course he was getting massages.  The massage therapists were all credentialed and yes legit!!  BUT on further snooping I found these same men on FB ...YUP every one of them was GAY!       Over the last few years of our marriage he had no problem taking trips alone.  There were quite a few trips planned over the holiday season where we literally went to Thanksgiving dinner at a pricey steakhouse with our sons and he would either leave the next day or even on one last occasion he literally drove to the airport after dinner to catch a flight to San Francisco for a long weekend!!!   OF COURSE THIS ALL SEEMS TO MAKE SENSE TO ME NOW! GEZZZZ!   
Oh and he also subscribed and paid an ongoing monthly fee to the MASSAGE EXCHANGE.  Anyone know about this sight?  I read many of the comments on the massage exchange and of course they were all carefully written. Only one guy came out and gave a warning that he thought it was for gay hooking up and the owner of the sight was quick to try and debunk him!   WHAT A TURN OFF to meet up with a complete stranger and exchange body massages!  UGH!!! SIGH!!  What's crazy is I can't see my now ex ever participating in a meet up but I guess that just shows you how dang naive I have been and what a stranger he truly is!  
He also had a couple of overnight stays at an economy hotel not far from our home.  I was able to match up phone numbers, dates and credit card payments and he had hired a traveling massage therapist.
It's hard to believe I lived many years of my life in a FRAUDULENT marriage and now I am having to reconcile what I now know and suspect.
MY EX had the gall to tell me anything that I had seen on his statements was all a mental mind stretch on my behalf.  The worst part of all of this is knowing I still have NO idea of who this person is that I was married to, and more so that my 3 son's suffered the greatest collateral damage!!! 
This past October I finally sat my two adult son's down and told them (not everything in terms of what I have knowledge of) but what I know and suspect of their father.   They've handled it well!  They have not confronted their father and I am certain I am a TABU topic when they are with their father!  I'm sure their father avoids the mentioning of my existence like the plague!  THE ELEPHANT IS IN THE ROOM!

Oh one more thing....during the course of our marriage when the gay topic came up, usually if someone was super obviously gay.... my ex would say to me "BORN THAT WAY OR CHOSEN?"   That is one question that I'd like to ask my now ex  You tell me.....BORN THAT WAY OR CHOSEN????   

It'll be interesting to see how the years unfold!!!   Like I said to my ex I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!

Last edited by 38yrsGAMEOVER (February 5, 2021 12:42 pm)

Hi Sean and everyone,

Oh god I'm going through a tough time at the moment.
It's a long story and very confusing. At the start of lockdown 1 I found out that my husband had had a 1 night stand with a woman. We then started counselling and through that he has
unexpextedly revealed that he is confused about his sexuality. He is 42 and we've been together for 18 years. We had a good relationship which went a bit wrong when the children came along but only in the normal way that my friends are also experiencing. In the counselling he has said that he had a sexual experience with a man when he was 19. He had never told me this before which is strange in itself as it's not a big deal to me (the fact that he hasn't said makes it a big deal).  The fact that he says he's confused is confusing in itself. How can a 42 year old man be confused. Surely he has been living with his own sexuality all this time and knows who turns his head when he walks down the road?

Although I've never found any "clues" that he might be gay and I don't think he has been with a man during our relationship the truth is I've had a very buried gut feeling that every now and then would come up. 5 years ago I went to a counsellor about something else and said "I think my husband might be gay".  But there really has never been a reason for me to say this to him and we have had a lovely relationship. Even now when things are falling apart actually we still get on in the day to day. The other significant thing is that although we've had a regular sex life. For the first 10 years he was very focused on a cuckold fantasy. In the end I really went off this and I've been trying to move our sex life to being present in our bodies and connecting with the physical rather than fantasies
He is just not into this and he is emotionally distant in sex. We've also had ongoing arguments over the years because he's not very affectionate and has really rejected and looked down on things like cuddling up on the sofa. He also experienced impotence with his girlfriends before me (and also with me the first couple of times but then really totally fine for all the years after that!)

Just to add in more confusion it has now come out that his dad also struggled with his sexuality in quite a profound way for the whole of his marriage to my husband's mum. My husband had no idea about this until this week and has been majorly spooked about the similarities.

I just wondered what your gut reaction is to what I've written? My friends are all very confused! I really would like us to work on the marriage but also if he's gay then I'd much rather we love truthful lives and work on eventually becoming good friends and co parents.

Thanks for reading everyone. All of this on top of lockdown 3 (I'm in England) is really hard! Xx

Last edited by VioletSea (February 5, 2021 6:54 pm)

Thank you for posting Lily and Violet. In response to Violet's message/questions: 

1. Hi Sean and everyone, Oh god I'm going through a tough time at the moment. It's a long story and very confusing. At the start of lockdown 1 I found out that my husband had had a 1 night stand with a woman. We then started counselling and through that he has unexpextedly revealed that he is confused about his sexuality. He is 42 and we've been together for 18 years.

This is a very common age for closeted husbands to: a. stop having sex with their wives; b. start the long and painful process of coming out. So your husband is firmly in the "gay in denial husband" GIDH demographic/timeline. 

2. We had a good relationship which went a bit wrong when the children came along but only in the normal way that my friends are also experiencing. In the counselling he has said that he had a sexual experience with a man when he was 19.

Ok. Again this is quite common. 

3. He had never told me this before which is strange in itself as it's not a big deal to me (the fact that he hasn't said makes it a big deal).  The fact that he says he's confused is confusing in itself. How can a 42 year old man be confused. Surely he has been living with his own sexuality all this time and knows who turns his head when he walks down the road?

While I don't have a lot of information, I reckon it's not that simple my friend. He's likely confused about telling you he's gay and married you to conform. While today it's acceptable to be out, proud and fabulous, like me your husband was an adolescent during the worst of the AIDS crisis in the 80s and 90s. Back then, being gay was associated with pedophilia, sexual perversion, and death from the "gay cancer." This may be why we both hid our sexualities and married women. 

4. Although I've never found any "clues" that he might be gay and I don't think he has been with a man during our relationship the truth is I've had a very buried gut feeling that every now and then would come up. 5 years ago I went to a counsellor about something else and said "I think my husband might be gay."

I'd trust that intuition my friend. 

5. But there really has never been a reason for me to say this to him and we have had a lovely relationship. Even now when things are falling apart actually we still get on in the day to day.

Gay men make excellent best friends but terrible husbands. So while you might be emotionally compatible, I reckon you're no longer sexually compatible. Is that a fair statement? 

6. The other significant thing is that although we've had a regular sex life. For the first 10 years he was very focused on a cuckold fantasy.

This is a common red flag and let me guess...he never suggested a threesome with another woman. So what's the difference between a one-man/two-women-threeway and a cuck fantasy? Why it's another penis of course! For those who don't know the term "cuck" or "cuckold" it is a fetish through which a husband watches his wife have sex with another man...often while the wife belittles/humiliates her husband in a "you could never please me like this" kind of way. This is actually more common than you'd think among closeted husbands and I've had lots of exchanges with straight wives who served as sexual avatars. While I'm not a mental health professional, I believe the "cuck" fantasy serves three purposes: first, it sexualizes the deep shame a husband feels about being closeted/gay and unable to "satisfy" his wife; second, it allows the husband to somehow experience male-on-male sex through his wife; and third, it allows the GIDH to continue the fiction he's straight or bisexual because his wife's presence anchors him to a heterosexual identity. This third point sounds something like, "Well if my wife is in the room and I'm not doing anything sexual with another guy then I can't be gay." I call bullsh*t on point #3 because if you're watching a man have sex and that man's body arouses you...then you're gay. 

7. In the end I really went off this and I've been trying to move our sex life to being present in our bodies and connecting with the physical rather than fantasies. He is just not into this and he is emotionally distant in sex. We've also had ongoing arguments over the years because he's not very affectionate and has really rejected and looked down on things like cuddling up on the sofa. He also experienced impotence with his girlfriends before me (and also with me the first couple of times but then really totally fine for all the years after that!)

The cuck fantasy serves one purpose: it allow a closeted husband to introduce another man into the couple's sex life. What you've written about are common red flags: distant during sex (because a closeted husband is fantasizing about men); not very physically demonstrative (because the closeted husband isn't attracted to women nor their bodies); and impotence. I'd check to see if your husband is using Viagra or some other medication to perform with you. Question: how is your sex life now? 

8. Just to add in more confusion it has now come out that his dad also struggled with his sexuality in quite a profound way for the whole of his marriage to my husband's mum. My husband had no idea about this until this week and has been majorly spooked about the similarities.

There are two possibilities here: 1. your husband is telling the truth; 2. your husband made this story up to test your reaction. Based on my own troubled marriage and my time posting here, I tend to assume that whenever a gay husband is talking about "homosexuality" he's lying. And why? Because closeted husbands are incapable of being honest about their sexuality. They're not bad people per se....hiding/lying/distracting have all just become part of their DNA. 

9. I just wondered what your gut reaction is to what I've written? My friends are all very confused! I really would like us to work on the marriage but also if he's gay then I'd much rather we love truthful lives and work on eventually becoming good friends and co parents.

Please keep in mind that most straight wives never hear "I'm gay" from closeted husbands, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Now I'm going to adopt a completely different approach here. What I'd like you to do is role-play while reading this list. Let's assume your best female friend, let's call her Sharon, calls and breathlessly asks to meet with you. She wants to talk about her husband Doug. During a one-on-one lunch, she breaks down crying and says: 

- We're seeing a marriage counsellor and Doug recently shared that he's "confused about his sexuality"
- I found out Doug had a boyfriend at age 19
- I always have to initiate sex and he never really seems "present" when we're making love
- We no longer have regular sex and he often seems a little repulsed by me and my body
- His dad was gay
- Five years ago I blurted out "My husband is gay" to a therapist
- For years, he hounded me to have sex with another man so he could watch

Is Sharon's husband gay? It seems pretty clear that Sharon's husband is indeed gay. So why then would this answer be different for your own husband? Sorry if that stings a bit. Here are some other common red flags with closeted husbands who are slowly coming out or, worse still, cheating: 

- He has a job where he often travels for work
- Two speeds: he's obsessed with gay culture and might even have a gay bestie or he's totally homophobic
- A sudden manic interest in exercise and/or body shaving
- A new wardrobe, haircut, and underwear collection
- He wants anal play (plugs or dildos) during sex with his wife, likes to be spanked/humiliated, or will only do doggy style
- His interest in sex (with his wife) drops off in his 30s and the couple no longer has regular sex in their 40s 
- Very secretive about his devices: phone; computer; tablet
- Spends a lot of time (watching porn) alone and is often isolated on his devices...particulary late at night when everyone is sleeping and it's "safe" to watch porn 
 
This isn't an exhaustive list but I think you get the idea. Let me know if any of this applies to your husband/marriage. I hope I've helped in some way my friend and am so terribly sorry that you've found yourself here. Please post again if I haven't answered your questions or if you disagree with my opinions. Take care!

Last edited by Sean (February 6, 2021 12:42 pm)