Sean, as someone who has never posted on your thread, but who has READ EVERY WORD of the entire 136 pages, wishing I had popcorn all the way through, I thank you for your warmth and openness always, and with this last reaponse, your open-book willingness to not take offense—and with humor besides.  It was a delicate question, and Difficult territory that could easily burst into flames, but your straightforward response and examples show and explain without escalation. 

And yes that dangerous brunch line made me laugh! (Probably because my own husband is wicked good with not just food, but presentation and over the top food planning.)

Reading the long-read Sean thread over just a few days, it was easy to see gradual changes in your voice and perspective, as you are on your own life journey too, but your openness is consistent throughout, and I hope you will keep posting.  For me, and I am certain for others—including those anonymous people who read but never even register for the forum—your perspective is immensely helpful at a life-altering time.  Really, your thread has been one of the most helpful sources I have found to understand my situation.  Thank you.  (And possibly I will post my own questions some day soon!)

Thank you very much for posting Whirligig and OnMyOwnTwoFeet. If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, please ask away! 

Thank you for writing Lily. In response to your post: 

1. I know there's a limit to how much you can discuss things, Sean, and fair enough.  but I am just going to say this - when you say that you entered the closet because everywhere you looked it was all heterosexual it really comes off to me as if you are blaming straights for you being in the closet.  

It's certainly possible my friend and please feel free to message me as much as you want. What I was trying to do was explain why I didn't come out in my teens. I was also trying (and perhaps failing) to explain why I dated/married my girlfriend at the time. In brief, I was a teen in the 80s and I was just too scared by AIDS and the possibility of my family kicking me out to come out. Far from fiendishly rubbing my hands together at the possibility of ruining an unsuspecting girl's life, I was relieved to have feelings for a woman. And I could have sex with her! At the time, I truly believed this made me a straight man. I was also thrilled at the possibility of marrying and having children. I chose the closet and a heterosexual relationship to conform.  

2. I don't believe that is necessarily accurate at all - I see it more as the closet gay parents keeping their homosexual children in the closet with them.

Neither of my parents are gay so I disagree with this statement...based on my own personal experience. 

3. If being in the closet was about social intolerance of gay then why would a gay person marry?  wouldn't they at least like to be themselves at home?  Being a bachelor might not be the same pinnacle of social acceptance as being a family man but it's not unreasonable. Isn't the closet more about family, more about deceiving a straight into marriage, than anything else? 

We've had similar exchanges in the past.  I reckon what you're trying to ask is: "Why not choose to remain single rather than f*ck up a straight woman's life?" You make a fair point. My answer: I simply wanted to marry, have children, and spend my life as a husband/father. I desperately wanted to be like every straight male friend and family member because they were all husbands/fathers. I didn't want to be gay. I wouldn't allow myself to be gay. What you refer to as deception, I'm calling conformity. But these are essentially the same thing. So no I didn't stand at the alter with a devilish grin thinking, "I can't wait to f*ck this up!" At the time, I hoped that marrying a woman would somehow make me a straight man. Clearly it didn't work. Does that make any sense?

Thanks for posting Lily. Please feel free to post again as I always enjoy our exchanges. 

Last edited by Séan (April 11, 2019 10:00 pm)

Thanks Lily. Yes I see your point now. Unlike your ex-husband, the first time I had sex with a man was around age 39 which was also the first time I'd cheated on my (then) wife. In response to your post: 

1. When you say you were scared by AIDS scared of your family's reaction and socially scared to come out you are saying you were aware you were sexually attracted to men. 

Correct. 

2. You weren't 'fiendishly rubbing your hands together' but you weren't caring about her either - you weren't thinking would she be better off with a man who desires her you weren't thinking about how good you were for her, just how good she was for you.  you weren't in love with her.

Also correct. It was like I was drowning emotionally and she suddenly swam by. I then latched on to her to save myself. For a time, we were a perfect fit. 

3. I can believe it was an innocent mistake to make, you're young and didn't know better, when we're young we are wondering am I in love yet, we don't know for sure.

Agreed. I reckon I had this alluring brokenness and she kindly took it upon herself to save me. I've learned something in my countless exchanges with straight spouses and it's this: our relationships are all largely the same. Most gay-in-denial husbands (GIDHs) are toxic narcissists with secrets who prey upon kind, caring, co-dependents. My wife made it her life's mission to heal me...but of what she didn't really know until much later. Far from being truly repulsed by the gay thing (TGT), most straight spouses I encounter actually double down on their relationships following disclosure of gay porn or cheating with men. While I'm not a mental health professional, I believe their reaction is something along the lines of: "So it's not me! His same-sex attraction is the real problem!" They then roll up their sleeves and really attack the problem. Following discovery, she somehow believes that sheer effort will make him a God-fearing straight man. My ex-wife had the same reaction. She thought she could heal me through love and prayer. 

So what's my point? I think closeted gay men and kind caring women will probably continue to marry because they initially fit together emotionally. Put bluntly, the broken will always attract fixers, particularly if his mother was the same. Using myself as an example, my mother is the daughter of an alcoholic father and manic-depressive mother. Not surprisingly, my ex-wife is also the daughter of an alcoholic father and manic depressive mother. I think what I thought was "love" at the time was more a broken yet familiar emotional bond. I hope this isn't a blame shift Lily! I'm simply trying to explain why my ex-wife and I felt a mutual connection before my gay porn and cheating blew up our marriage. I still accept 100% of the blame for my marriage failing because I was hiding a secret. This post is more about why as a closeted gay man I felt an attraction to this woman. 

Thanks again for sharing. I've learned a lot from this exchange. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (April 13, 2019 2:16 am)

Good day Brokenhearted. In response to your questions: 

1. Sean, apologies if you’ve already addressed this but what did you do/attempt to do to repair things with your wife after cheating discovery?

I think it's best to provide a short chronology. My (then) wife confronted me in my office, "Are you gay?", back in May 2012. At first, I lied. But a few hours later, I got home from work and came out the same day about everything: gay, cheating, my porn addiction...the works. I then also started sleeping with every gay man in a 20-mile radius of our home. We limped along in a mixed-orientation-marriage (MOM) for another 18 months before separating, then divorced in September 2015. 

2. Did you just come out and she got lost in the wake of the announcement? 

Yes. After coming out, I was in full-blown gay adolescence, which lasted for the better part of two years. By "gay adolescence" I mean I reverted to being a self-centred, boy-crazy, slut. I was neither a father nor husband during these tumultuous years. All I wanted to do was have sex with as many men as possible. 

3. Do you still apologize to this day?

Today no, but I have apologized in the past. At my urging, shortly before separating my (then) wife and I went through couples' counselling. While I'd apologized many times in the past for lying to her, cheating, and for my porn addiction, I also made a final apology. During our final counselling session, I read her a letter during which I made a long, heartfelt, and genuine apology. Needless to say, we were both sobbing. She kept the letter. After separating, I also apologized in person and individually to: my kids; my former in-laws; former sister-in-law; and former brother-in-law. (And that was really f*cking hard.) Today I no longer apologize about my past behaviour, not because I'm not remorseful nor defensive, but because I reckon there eventually has to be closure. It's been almost four years since we divorced and I feel it's now healthier to move on rather than constantly relive/recycle my troubled past. If however new issues/problems arise, I am quick to acknowledge my mistakes and apologize. This forum and its members have also been a huge source of healing for me. Why? Because I've pretty much shared everything and the kind members here are quick to call me out when I attempt to distort the facts, minimize my own mistakes, or shift blame on to my ex-wife.   

4. Has she let go of the anger and forgiven you for cheating? 

Yes I believe so. 

5. Did you try to hide the infidelity when telling friends and family and just focus on the gay aspect or did you own the deception?

I owned it all 100%, particularly with my in-laws. Shortly before our separation, I joined a 12-step program for porn/sex addiction. As you may already know, 12-step groups emphasize the necessity of apologizing and making amends with those we have hurt. My own 12-step group requires we make amends as the foundation of recovery. So while I might have been defensive or perhaps even sought to minimize my past mistakes (like cheating), today I find it much more helpful to just own it, apologize, and then repeat.

I hope I've answered your questions Brokenhearted. If not, please feel free to post again. Be well!