Thank you for your kind message Ruby. In reply to your message/questions:

1. I never doubt my decision to leave him.  I do question my conclusion that he is gay.  He is remarried to a woman two decades younger than he. They literally have nothing obvious in common.  They differ in culture, age, education, income, ethnicity.  It doesn't make sense that at a time when he can live by himself and freely explore being gay in private that he would jump back into a marriage with a woman.  Do you have any insight?

Some men just simply "foreclose" on their homosexuality. This means they can't accept their homosexuality and may never come out. (I've found most gay men 45+ years old simply feel too much shame from decades of hearing how evil and disgusting they are to come out and live authentically.) When I first came to this website, I simply couldn't understand why gay (ex)husbands remained in the closet after disclosure, separation, and divorce. Now I'm not so judgemental nor categorical. I don't believe I came out to my own wife because I was magically a good and honest person. I came out to her because she asked me the question and I was simply too exhausted to keep lying about it, particularly in the face of overwhelming evidence that I was gay. I came out because I knew that remaining in the closet would eventually kill me. I could also come out because society is now much more tolerant and accepting of gays and lesbians. With regards to your ex-husband, you already know if he's gay or straight so it doesn't really matter what he does nor who he marries. No straight man spends years looking at gay pornography.  

2. I have asked this question a number of times.  I think this is what it means to be in limbo when a spouse or ex-spouse remains in the closet.  I feel as if my suffering through this ordeal has remained in the closet with him because no one really understands what I have been through.  He is still considered by most as the victim in our divorce and I am the villain.  I used my knowledge of his secrets as leverage to get a good divorce settlement so from the outside it looks as if I took advantage of his kindness.

You did what you had to do to survive. There is a dark side to remaining in the closet. I know because I've lived there. Choosing to stay in the closet means living a life based on hiding, shame, and lies. Men in the closet are often master manipulators because they've spent a lifetime distracting others from asking the question: "Are you gay?" Most studies have found that gay children feel different starting around age 5 or 6. (This was my experience because I remember feeling my first attraction towards a man at age 6.) Even at such a young age I somehow knew it was something I had to hide. Why am I sharing this? I'm trying to show you that any person who has learned to hide or deny their sexuality for 30-40 years would be very very good at manipulating your former friends into believing the divorce was your fault.

​I know you want answers, honesty, justice, and redemption, but you'll never get them from your former husband. It sounds like he's bought himself a young mail-order bride (Asian perhaps?) who has no choice but to keep his dirty little secret. Question: do your kids know he's gay? 

I had heard he was telling people that our divorce was caused by my absent libido.  Recently I heard from his own lips that he cheated because I refused to have sex with him.  I was stunned.  I literally spent twenty years begging for sex from him and he spent twenty years making excuses.  I could not believe that he had the nerve to blame me.

I once asked him in response to his lack of interest in sex, if he was gay.  He calmly said no.  After our divorce I confronted him and told him that I knew he was gay and that he only married me to have children.  He did not deny either accusation.

Sean,

It helps.  My ex never said I love you after we married.  He had various explanations, none of which made any common sense.  I asked him late in our marriage if he ever loved me.  He told me that I should know better than to ask him that.  When he proposed he said, "I am ready to have children.  Let's get married."  The only time we had any regular sex was when we were trying to have children, once a month until I got pregnant and then nothing.  He never touched me again after our last child was born even though I asked him frequently.

I never speak to him.  Emails are rare now that the kids are older.  No contact is the only way I can survive.  When we split all of our mutual friends took his side.  Luckily I have always enjoyed solitude so the lack of friends did not break me.

He used me.  I can see no other way to interpret my experience with him.  Just as him being gay is the only explanation that makes sense.

Ruby

BryonM,
Nice fake picture. It seems most of your post is about sympathizing with and asking the person that is a lying manipulator in a real nice way to come clean. Unfortunately I and probably most of the people posting here asked for "the truth." Quite honestly in those exact terms (among many other terms!). The truth was not something my ex wanted me to know. That's a fact. He is probably still hiding his "truth" among his flying monkeys and various ignorants. It will catch up to him. The TRUTH comes to light eventually. 

Last edited by nosurrender (December 7, 2016 10:41 pm)

Thank you for sharing Ruby. I like your style, particularly the "this isn't up for debate" way you divorced. You make an excellent point: being gay has little to do with being a bad person. While I've experienced some powerful exchanges on this forum, I've yet to experience homophobia. I guess what most straight spouses abhor is the lying, cheating, and manipulations of their damaged husbands and I can only imagine the frustration when this continues following separation and divorce. 

In response to BryonM's post: 

1. How can a straight spouse, male or female, who has reason to believe the other spouse is lesbian or gay, help or encourage him/her to come out? Is it even possible?

The approach that seems to work best is: "I know you are gay. This is not a debate. Here is the evidence I found. This is what I'm going to do, with or without you." In my experience, I don't think it would have been possible for my ex-wife to help me come out. Given what I've read here, following discovery the straight spouse (who I'll refer to as the "wife" in this post) has two options regarding her husband's homosexuality: option #1 is to say "I'm done" and then start the process to end her marriage (like Ruby explained above); option #2 is the straight spouse trying to be part of the coming out process, either through a prolonged period of "limbo" or mixed orientation marriage. Again I can only share my experience or perhaps the experiences of my gay/straight marriage friends. In my opinion, a straight spouse trying to play a part of the coming out process is a bit like a bartender try to help an alcoholic regular "work through his issues." It just doesn't make sense. In my situation, married, three children, and going through gay adolescence, the only way to work through my many issues was away from my wife and family. Near the end, my marriage was a classic narcissist (me) and co-dependent (wife) situation. It was a highly toxic relationship whereby I could only think about myself and she simply gave more and more. What worked for me was being alone, coming out, owning my many mistakes, apologizing, and moving on. Coming out was mainly about coming out to myself and it's a process that can take years...or perhaps even a lifetime. While the intentions may be good, I don't believe the straight spouse should play an active role because he/she ultimately wants to fix a broken marriage rather than free his/herself from the gay spouse.  

2. What could your wife have done that might have made it easier for you or have given you confidence to come out sooner; conversely, did she exhibit any behaviors or attitudes that made you more reluctant or even scared to come out?  (eg, you talked about her Christian beliefs, but were there other influences one way or the other?) Did she do or say anything that sealed the closet door shut in your mind - whether real or imagined on your part?

Post-discovery, we spent about 18 unhappy months together and it wasn't pretty. My feeling is whether we accept it or not, a gay/straight marriage is over from the moment the gay spouse stops fantasizing about same sex relationships and starts living his/her homosexuality. This can be via porn, affairs, or even a serious same sex relationship. In my situation, my ex-wife did exactly the right thing...for both herself and our kids. She accepted the end of our relationship. She accepted I had to go through this process alone. So she moved out with the kids and moved on. After a loved one dies, healing can only begin once we bury our dead. By staying together for 18 months post-discovery, it was like leaving our rotting corpse of a marriage in the middle of our kitchen. By separating and starting divorce proceedings, we buried our former marriage and could then start to heal. Separately. In response to your question, near the end of our relationship we were simply speaking different languages. She wanted to stay together for the kids, which was what her church told her, whereas I wanted to come out and live my life honestly as a gay man. When two people want such different things, I don't believe there was anything we could have done to make it work. It was unbearable and I finally asked for a divorce. 

3. I was struck by how you described the gex as losing his/her strongest supporter upon coming out. I think that would indeed be scary for anyone and would have to be one factor in not coming out, at least for a time.

Indeed. We're giving up the only relationship and security we know. It's terrifying, particularly when the gay spouse is dealing with issues of shame, internalized homophobia, and lifelong self-hatred. I can only imagine how scary it must have been for my ex-wife and kids. 

4. I get very hung up on words, and how to find the best, most helpful words and to be aware of words that create obstacles instead of openings. For example, we say we need to get a "confession" or we can't get our gay spouse to "admit" that they are gay. Lately it seems to me that is a self-defeating way to go about it. What we want is the "truth;" and saying it that way is not the same as trying to force a "confession" or an "admission" of something. Those two words sound medieval to me.

I think a straight spouse goes through his/her very own 'coming out' process. As I get older, I've learned to accept that truth is a relative term. Truth is often a function of whether I am ready, willing, and able to accept reality rather than my perception of reality at the time. For example, I believed I was straight even while watching gay porn and having sex with men. I can only assume my straight spouse believed the same thing. Yes I know that's absurd but it's a process. Similarly, I've read countless posts here from straight wives who so want their gay husbands to be straight that they overlook the porn and cheating. "His father was absent" or "He was molested as a child" are common rationalizations as to why he's seeking out sex with other men. Again this is a function of the straight spouse trying to see reality through the smeared lenses of denial and rationalization. By demanding an honest confession, I believe the straight spouse wants closure. Whether the gay spouse will ever make the confession is another matter.   

5. I doubt any of us has ever asked the question "Are you gay?" and gotten a response like "Why, as a matter of fact, yes, I am; thank you for asking."  Asking the question that way - "Are you gay?" - clearly doesn't work. But is there another way to open the discussion that does not put our spouse on the defensive?  The analogy I think of is a frightened dog hiding under the porch. You won't get him to come out by yelling at him, poking him with sticks, or throwing rocks at him. He'll more likely bare his fangs and strike out at you in self-defense. You might be able to coax him out if you set out a dish of water and food, and then back off and wait. Thoughts?

You make an excellent point. If I may paraphrase, the gay spouse hears the question like this: "I'd like you to admit the most painful and terrifying secret you've held for your entire life. It's a shameful secret that will likely end our relationship, destroy our family, and leave both of us angry and alone. Ok honey...I'm ready to hear it. GO!" Similarly, it's naive of me to tell a straight spouse to just walk away from a lifelong relationship in which she (and it's usually a she) has invested so much time and effort. We're all different and our journeys are all different as well. Through my involvement here, I've learned that I need to respect that. 

Thanks for sharing friend. I appreciate you reaching out. 

Last edited by Séan (December 8, 2016 5:00 pm)