Sean wrote:  "Don't forget that you have the ultimate trump card: exposing him for the kinky old f** he is. I hope you've kept copies of everything for the divorce. Forgive my harsh wording, namely "f**", but that's the heart of it. He's scared sh*tles you'll expose him then leave him. So don't forget that you're essentially in control..."

Sean, I understand your point, here.  I understand needing to fight for a fair settlement, in a divorce.  However, the harsh, anti-gay language used doesn't help our society become kind and accepting.  Those kinds of words are cruel.   I am NOT defending the devious, deceitful, selfish, damaging behavior of our GID spouses/exes.  You know my story.  I'm Not defending lying, cheating, deceiving, self-centered narcissistic behavior.  However, I truly hated seeing the derogatory terms, even though I know you were trying to make a point.

 

Last edited by jkpeace (May 31, 2018 7:46 am)

Sean,  Words are such strange things.  My children and I have many discussions, on this.  Words thought offensive by my generation are "taken back", by later generations.  "Queer" comes to mind for me, on that one.  I grew up in decades where that was a hurtful word. Now, it's not.  Maybe I'm not up to date on the latest words found offensive or inoffensive.  They certainly do change, a lot!  I do know that different generations hear words, differently.  My daughter constantly reminds me to understand what words mean to her.  I constantly remind her to be aware that others don't always have the same definition in mind.

I am happy to see that Kathyd feels empowered and Not crazy!  Go, Kathyd!

Thank you for posting JK and Kathy! I always learn something from this forum. JK your post about words got me thinking: in the early stages just following discovery - which means "discovering" gay porn, cheating, or Craigslist messages - straight spouses and their gay-in-denial husbands are in shock. She's shocked he might be gay and he's completely shocked that he might get outed. 

​When a straight spouse first posts here, she often has two words on the brain: gay & bisexual. (There are of course many others but for the purposes of brevity, I'll just focus on these two.) In my experience, following a straight spouse's discovery that her husband has been having sex with men, she spends a considerable amount of time trying to define her husband's sexuality. The gay-in-denial husband often muddies the waters because, once caught, he tends to minimize/deny his behaviour and claim that he's bisexual rather than gay. He claims that cheating happened "just once" or that he was "curious." Thus begins the long and painful process of breaking down years (or decades) of denial until the straight spouse inevitably accepts that her husband is gay, was born gay, and that a gay/straight marriage probably won't ever give her what she needs.    

​Following discovery, the straight spouse asks me if her husband is "gay" or "bisexual." The reasoning goes as follows: if he's bisexual (attracted to both men and women) then the marriage has a chance, however, if he's gay, then the relationship is likely doomed. I'm inclined to believe that both spouses in a gay/straight marriage start off wanting to save the relationship...but for different reasons. The gay-in-denial (GID) husband loves his closet above all else and his wife/children serve as cover so that he can continue to identify as straight. The straight spouse, on the other hand, truly loves her husband. She just wants intimacy and a loving, caring partner. Put bluntly, he's in love with his secret while she's in love with him.

​Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, such as proof her husband is cheating with men, the straight spouse continues to question whether her husband is truly gay. He's often having sex with men, watches only gay porn, and no longer has sex with his wife and yet for whatever reason, "gay" is just too charged a word. "Bisexual" seems more acceptable because it represents hope...hope that he'll somehow give his wife what she needs. Please note that I'm not being dismissive of words like "gay" and "bisexual." Just five years ago, I couldn't even say the words "I'm gay" to my mother while coming out. I could only get out "I'm g-uh" before sobbing uncontrollably and my sister had to blurt out, "He's gay mom!" But I digress.

​Before coming out, a lot of gay men claim to be bisexual because they think it's more palatable. (For the record, I do believe bisexuals and bisexuality - meaning an attraction to both sexes - exist.) For example, my boyfriend of six years came out to his parents just 18 months ago...at age 45! Until he came out, he'd often claim he was still attracted to women. That is until I'd gently point out that he hadn't slept with a woman since 1998. I find that many gay men 40+ years old still suffer from a form of internalized homophobia simply because we middle-aged men grew up in a very homophobic society. The fear and self-hatred are hard-wired. It's very hard to go from deeply closeted, to pride parade fabulous in just a few months or years;  particularly when our friends and family are religious and homophobic. So what's my point?

​My point is that straight spouses need to focus on facts and behaviours rather than on false hope or her gay-in-denial husband's word salad. A man who watches gay porn, repeatedly has sex with men, and no longer has sex with his wife isn't "curious", he's pride-parade gay. Bisexual means an attraction to both sexes which for me means an attraction to and/or having sex with both genders (male & female). Whenever someone gets triggered by specific words in my posts, I now understand that it's just part of the healing process. (Just read a previous exchange of posts about the word 'clitoris'...oy vey!) In the early stages of discovery, both the gay and straight spouses are naked, exposed and scared. We're scared because we know our previous relationship just died but we still cling to the faint hope that things will work out. Sadly, the odds are against us. There was a time not too long ago that saying, "I'm gay" reduced me to tears. Years later I can now say "I'm gay" with about as much emotion as saying "I'm Irish." But it's taken me years to get here so I reckon I understand a bit about the process, albeit from the gay husband's standpoint. 

​So JK I'm sorry if the word "fag" triggered you my friend. It wasn't written with any malice, although I can see how it might trigger you and others. For that I apologize. Please know my intent wasn't to be angry nor insulting. I well remember using the word "fag" or "faggot" in the schoolyard as a slur or insult. Today I wear my own faggotry like a rainbow-coloured badge of honour. After all, it's been hard earned. Thanks for reading my rambles friends. 

If any straight spouses have questions, please feel free to post them here. Be well friends! 

Last edited by Sean (June 1, 2018 3:56 pm)

Thanks for the shout out Justwokeup (love the name by the way). In reply: 

1. I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your perspective (as I'm sure everyone on here does), on this complex situation.

I appreciate your honesty my friend and the honesty of the other women who so bravely post here. 

2. No one wants to imagine the possibility that the love and emotions shared over the last, however many years, could have been an act on the other person's part, that hurts like hell. No one wants to believe the future they thought they had is no longer possible.

Excellent points. I reckon it's a bit like waking up one day only to discover your husband is a Russian spy...and gay. BUT I've also shared my opinion that most spouses knew on some level that something was wrong with their relationships, years or even decades before posting here. Not too long ago, my ex-wife admitted that for years she suspected I was gay, but didn't want to confront me for fear of breaking up our family. This is where I reckon the gay and straight spouse have some common ground. They're both closeted on some level: he's denying his sexuality while she is denying that something is fundamentally wrong with the relationship. I think that's why both gay & straight spouses suffer in similar ways: insomnia; anxiety; and depression for example. The longer I denied my attraction to men, the more effort it took to maintain the lie that I was a straight man. 

3. To lose sight of everything you thought was real and come to understand that moving forward means you will have to remind yourself it's okay to believe what you're seeing or alternately question everything to make sure you're not being gullible again, is frightening. it makes sense that so many of us fall for their crazy stories, our heads are SO fucked up!

​I am a very big believer in the stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. When most straight spouses start posting here, I reckon they're in the denial and bargaining stages. And those stages sound a lot like: maybe he's bisexual (denial); we're going to try a mixed orientation marriage and stay together for the kids ​(bargaining); he's having sex with men because of child abuse, porn, blah blah blah (bargaining/denial). The one thing gay & straights spouses have in common is an overwhelming desire to stay together, but for different reasons. She wants to work it out because she loves him. He only loves his closet.

4. I needed the blatant response you gave me, told with conviction and harshness to slap me into reality. I feel like right now, when things are ambiguous, I feel scared and confused. If things aren't crystal clear, that means I have to figure out the real meaning behind them and I'm plagued with self doubt. So, again, THANK YOU for giving me some clarity. 

When you haven't had sex with your husband for years (or decades), he's fapping every day to gay porn, trolling daily for gay sex on Craigslist (or Grindr), and cheating with every man in a 10-mile radius, these facts eventually break through the denial. Straight men don't watch gay porn, constantly hunt for male-on-male sex, and f*ck other men. Gay men do.

​I hope I wasn't too harsh with this reply or my former posts. Lord knows straight spouses don't need more pain. Be well my friend! If you have any questions for a gay ex-husband, please feel free to post them here.   

"he's denying his sexuality while she is denying that something is fundamentally wrong with the relationship. I think that's why both gay & straight spouses suffer in similar ways: insomnia; anxiety; and depression for example. The longer I denied my attraction to men, the more effort it took to maintain the lie that I was a straight man."

Blame shift and deflect.  Followed by comment on suffering as if the source of the suffering is not the GID.  followed by whine about how hard it was to make the effort to lie all the time.

I don't want to put you off posting here, it is invaluable the help you offer but felt the need to point this out.

You're still busy blaming your wife Sean.  sorry.