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Whirligig ... This struck a cord with Me
and it was never naturally warm and affectionate.
I think that says it all in terms of knowing.. This does not exist because it’s all an act! You cant fake warm affection.
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"It's only now, in hindsight, I understand: he was projecting on to me his own duplicity, and I was projecting on to him my own honesty. People can think I was gullible, but in reality I don't think like a cheater, so it's hard for me to see how someone else would actually chose to spend a lifetime as a cheater.
So I would say the red flag for me was this kind of hostility and suspicion. If I have it to do over again, I'm going to watch and see if a man treats me like he believes in me completely. If he treats me like I'm trustworthy, that will tell me whether he's actually trustworthy".
Walkbymyself said it well! I just had this conversation with someone recently. This is what happened to me. I trusted because I’m NOT hiding anything and assume others aren’t. This scares me because I will have to curb that to be safe in the future, but I don’t want to live in fear of everyone’s motives.
That post and responses to it have me thinking about other red flags that I saw and rationalized:
1. Insecurity meeting people important to you, like your family. (Because they know the truth that they are not being real, they fear others will see through them. They already have us hoodwinked after all.)
2. Sort of odd, over the top, and dramatic declarations of devotion to you particularly if there are others around to hear it. I’m thinking of that time 4 months into our relationship, I collapsed due to vertigo, and my neighbor called the ambulance and my GID boyfriend. He came rushing to my home from an hour away. He sweeps in as if his arrival is saving the day, and says “Someday one of us will die in the other’s arms”. Even in my nauseous, dizzy state my gut reaction to that was, Uh….a little drama? It didn’t make me feel better, at all.
3. Questioning the motives of longtime friends that he had no reason at all to mistrust. Basically just another branch of the behavior so well-described by walkbymyself.
4. Ability to stride effortlessly in your high heels. He liked clowning in social gatherings, so I took it as comic performance, but in retrospect of course, as a closeted CD and G, he had years of practice at that.
5. I think my GIDH is also a narcissist, and there were plenty of instances where I wondered why he couldn’t muster empathy for someone else. Everything was about him even when it wasn’t.
6. Adrenaline seeking, and risk-taking behaviors. Then later, sharing the stories over and over with others.
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Ladies, I know this sounds uncouth and crude, but from a straight man I can let you into a little secret. Half in jest, but they do say that “never a truer word is spoken in jest”.
Bend over in front of any heterosexual man and look backwards to see if he is looking. If he is looking intently at your backside he is straight. If he looks away quickly, he is straight (we have a natural “hand in the cookie jar” reflex that is innate). It may be that he hasn’t noticed which does happen. Let out a small sigh to attract attention, this will draw his attention which then should become fixated. There is some part of a heterosexual man’s brain that is automatically attracted to the female form when adopting this posture. I have been known to utter expletives at the impropriety of experiencing this phenomenon when the subject of my attention was wholly inappropriate. I’m doing it before I know I’m doing it, even if I know it’s wrong it still can’t be helped.
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Ordinary guy wrote:
Ladies, I know this sounds uncouth and crude, but from a straight man I can let you into a little secret. Half in jest, but they do say that “never a truer word is spoken in jest”.
Bend over in front of any heterosexual man and look backwards to see if he is looking. If he is looking intently at your backside he is straight. If he looks away quickly, he is straight (we have a natural “hand in the cookie jar” reflex that is innate). It may be that he hasn’t noticed which does happen. Let out a small sigh to attract attention, this will draw his attention which then should become fixated. There is some part of a heterosexual man’s brain that is automatically attracted to the female form when adopting this posture. I have been known to utter expletives at the impropriety of experiencing this phenomenon when the subject of my attention was wholly inappropriate. I’m doing it before I know I’m doing it, even if I know it’s wrong it still can’t be helped.
This was, of course, how Elle Woods discovered the pool boy was gay....He was unresponsive to the "bend and snap." ;)
It was also how this real-life "Straight Wife" outed her husband. I discovered this blog early on during the deep MF phase. I was so grateful to be able to laugh at something.
True Story: Elle Woods outed my husband
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This reply is to JoeC,
Don't feel bad about your friends saying things like "how did you not know".
My GX had everyone duped..I asked college friends and they were shocked as me. BUT they did see the narcissism and when I asked why didn't you tell me they said "would you have listened". I know I wouldn't have so can't fault them. If any knew she was gay they definitely would have told me.
So don't beat myself up for being so trusting ..they really have everyone duped.
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For me I would think you could ask something "have you ever watched gay porn". Us straight guys would answer something like "yuck". But people can lie.
For myself it was relative trusting again. My GX was so abnormally mean and cruel..I figured even if I met someone and they turned out to be gay they could never be as cruel as my GX.
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My husband is bi, not gay, but even 30 years in there were no indications that he’d have any interest in real life men. He never looks at men like one might think, he certainly never flirts. He’s not touchy-feely with men. He has no lgbtq friends in real life. He leads an exceptionally straight appearing life. I know he’s bi because he told me and I’ve always suspected on some level, but it never had to do with real life interactions. I don’t think you can know with 100% certainly. The largest group in the lgbtq+ community is bisexual, but it might not seem that way because they tend to blend more easily.
Last edited by TangledOil (August 14, 2021 6:01 pm)
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It is perfectly natural for us as injured people to exhibit and almost rely on the psychological defences of confirmation bias. We learn from our mistakes, and the mind seeks to protect itself from further injury by identifying risks based on our previous experiences. I for one have told my therapist that I cannot envisage a time where I could develop enough trust in an another to let them in to my being on an emotional level. You don’t just “suck this up” and move on with your life believing that in the light of a new day the perfect partner will happen around the corner. I know that I am already deeply distrustful of any woman who expresses even the slightest interest in me. Years of abuse and psychological torment have likely left me with a permanently damaged personality, one that bears no resemblance to the man I used to be. I cling to what I have left, a pastiche of love over a future of emptiness and regret. I hope that there are those who are reading these boards and thusly questioning whether or not they should ignore their instincts and invest themselves in uncertain relationships. If one person is saved from the fate that many of us have shared then maybe some of what I have endured has had a purpose. My first thought is always going to be “is this woman gay?”. And I hate myself for it.
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OG, this is true of me, too. I'm not sure I'm ever going to get past the damage. This is the only place where I feel like I can just talk about it without people being judgmental.
Like Rob says, a lot of people themselves will be stunned, but still make a remark like "how could you not know". I try not to take that personally, but it cuts really deeply, even now after all this time.
I try to turn it around: you have to think about just how exhausting and all-encompassing a job it was for him to keep a fraud going 24/7 for three decades. That took a huge amount of energy, and it's probably why my husband could get so resentful and so sullen and basically hate all my friends or our daughter's friends. He seemed resentful when people would come to the house, and now I just wonder how much of that was because he was just exhausted playing a fake person all the time. So when people raise that question with me -- how could I not know -- I ask them to think about how much work it was for him, always hiding his computer screen from me whenever I walked into the room, or trying to block my view if he had to open the trunk of his car.
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there is a sea of bi or lesbian women all around. Really, really there is. And the fact is they are at the top of the line up of women who are looking to date you. They outperform us straights on the dance floor of dating.
a bit of distrust goes a long way. Not a bad thing to have at all.
I will admit it's a bit galling the way straight men sweep straight women to one side as they go for the tantalising bisexual. the thoughts I have on the topic so far are that these women aren't hampered by sexual desire when it comes to men so they have a cool head and can play him. and from the other side, the men distrust themselves. Innately they sense this is not a woman who will make me feel jealous or allow me to get away with treating her bad.
And I think you can reverse the situation for the other side - I remember thinking when I met x that I would be safe with him. He was a few years older than me, but still, I was quite an eyeful and he was easily able to strike up a conversation with me.
re cooking - yes it doesn't seem to care if you are male or female, I heard there are differences in the number of receptors you can have in your skin and on your tongue - some people have ten times more receptors on their tongue than average - so that is extra information to develop the taste with.