Hi again, I want to say thanks, again. I feel so thrilled to hear your opinions and thoughts, sometimes sad, aware these experiences has come along with a lot of personal "cost". Your experiences move me. And I am so sorry for what you have experienced; lies and betrayal. I highly respect that, and appreciate that you share your stories. 

My personal concerns seems "light" compared to many of your stories. Still, I feel I have so many questions. I guess anyone else than my spouse cannot fully answer them, and many questions seem too small and insignificant to bring into the equation. But,  even if my situation is still "unclear", and I really dont know if this is real, it feels overwhelming. 

And I really value your thoughts and responses, and personally I think even the smallest of details may matter. To me it feels as it is in the details a possible key to more understanding and certainty may appear first, as I expect my spouse to be working hard to keep appearances. 

What is confusing, is that I feel I have a normal wife. At least, in everyday life these days, she is like any other wife. I even try to make myself think so. When I first began to think these thoughts, I think my "gaydar" woke, and tried to see things "clear". Not so easy when we have spent so many years together (now almost 20 years…).  I started noticing so much, and with time, I have begun thinking back, are there clues I missed, everything from her trips abroad with female friends, to her love for Melissa Etheridge and Tori Amos, as well as other clues of stigmatizing character… 

Like when it comes to her commenting bodies etc. (Kel) This is usually done in a very modest and respectful manner; it is not that we openly comment on people we see.I it so "commonly" done, it could be nothing.
She knows all the names of beautiful celebrities etc. and from time to time she comments, maybe about a change in their looks etc. I have then tried to have her comment someone, to see if she reacts to me saying such, like wow, check her out (celebrity on TV), has she increased their size maybe? (breasts). I think she enjoys this, and she usually knows the answer. And she does not question my remark. I find this harmless, but agree with you Kel.
The thing about it with my wife, is that she seems so "into it", so focused, and not as gossip. More like a kid knowing all about Porsches and Ferraris, if you understand.. 

Her phone is also a very subtle thing. She does not bring it to the bathroom, or bring it when she leaves the room. But she is vary of her code, similar with the imac, and her work PC.  
And given my suspicions earlier, she does not seem to ease on this. But there should not be a reason for secrecy either…I snooped before. She noticed. I found nothing, but I found threads where she had deleted messages. I either saw it out of the communication, or I noticed because I knew from her lock screen notifications she had received messages, but later they were gone. Still, she can also be like deleting mails continously, or messages, just because they are read. And all such incidents are not a basis for discussion, where she easily can dismiss with practical reasons for her behaviour. So I guess I have given up on the phone.

In general I think she is capable of covering her tracks well. And I see it highly likely that she choose her "moments" well, as I  think of her being used to have thick armour on her desires. I feel I can relate to your situation lostdad, us as a couple, earlier. At the time I could not relate variations to certain situations etc. What I knew back then, is that when we finally had a moment to ourselves, sex and cuddling with me was not her priority. And I know she did not enjoy sex much. 

Later, I introduced her to toys and movies etc, she responded very positive, but I also think this was the first penetration of that armour.  I agree; The more I learn the more it answers those nagging question 
My thoughts now is "learn" how to find another weak spot in that armour. I feel strongly, if I would leave her now, it would be based on suspicions only, with a risk of being wrong.  

Talking has taken us "nowhere". Meeting with both therapist (couple counselling), and later a sex therapist regaring this very topic, led us "nowhere". I see counselling/therapy in general as positive. But the insight gained by my wife seemed very superficial to me. So, I feel I learned she does not know herself as well as I thought. I was surprised she wanted to come along to the sex therapist to discuss my thoughts on her as lesbian or bisexual, but the therapist was only critical towards me and my "accusations", since my wife said, no she was not either.... At least, that was how I felt it. 

I feel the things I describe every day now. Like how her voice change when she talks about the women around us that I suspect are lesbian/bisexual. How she are very careful about critisizing the same women.How she may have started a pattern for home office days. How her dresscode and choice of colours seem to get less feminine every year. How I feel she prefers women so very much. 

ynedin, no problem sharing your thoughts in this thread, and you are very welcome if it is up to me.I am sorry about someone treating you like this.

Sorry if my writing and thoughts are blurry, as maybe my english, this is not my native arena, if you understand.

Hi Rob,
Funny thing, my wife is usually quite mixed regarding privacy.  That is, with me she (pretends) to be very discrete, and I know she is very much concerned about appearances, this goes well with her upbringing.
She can also be relaxed about stuff, and some of an exhibitionist.
She can leave her private stuff easily accessible (everything from letters from her bank, doctor, underwear to dildos, easily to find and in a mess).
I often sense, she can like to be seen exposed nude, like walking through our house before night, turning off lights in the nude.
Point is, I would expect my wife to fall into a sloppy pattern, like you say. I just think she has not found that special friend worth risking it all just yet.
You say you accepted this happening, or is it just a way of saying you did not notice however obvious it was, in retrospect..? Cant blame you for wanting it not to be real, right..?

I agree with lostdad; whether she's cheating or not, it doesn't excuse the lack of intimacy, and no explanation is going to make your needs go away.

My current husband divorced his first wife over this very issue.  He to this day (a good 14 years later) has no idea what was causing the lack of interest in intimacy on his ex's part.  They went to counseling for a while, and he knows that individual counseling on his ex's part revealed something to his ex, but she never divulged what it was.  He thinks it had something to with her father (was never sure if it was abuse, or missing her dead father, or what), but his ex wouldn't tell him.  And she stopped counseling and didn't want to deal with the issue.  She was sleeping on the couch every night where she'd fall asleep watching tv. (She STILL does that, according to his daughter.)  No intimacy, no sex, no explanation, no plan to deal with it, no end in sight.  So he got out.  He knew that he couldn't live that way forever.  His ex has never dated anyone since their then.  I see her and her family quite often - I very much like her.  While not a very feminine woman (neither are her sisters), I don't perceive her to have same sex attraction issues at all.  I have no guess as to what the issue was there, but my ex was smart enough to know that he'd only be torturing himself if he stayed.

Some of the things that you mention are a bit odd, and yet some are not.  I myself love Melissa Etheridge and Tori Amos, but only their music - not... THEM.  I know plenty of women who are into celebrity knowledge and love to show off that they know who got what done cosmetically and who's getting married/divorced/pregnant.  But usually it extends well beyond their bodies, and it also includes men and famous children or animals, too.  Not just women.  You'll never get to the bottom of the issue that way - you're looking for proof (which I get).  However, when it comes down to it, you have proof that your sex life sucks, that she doesn't care that you're unhappy about it, and that it's never going to change.  What do you need proof of WHY for?  Is it going to change the problem any?  No, it won't.

Kel

Steen,

Please know that most if not all of know the very deep need for proof - whether of their actions or the root cause of the actions.  That's completely normal - I don't want you feeling attacked (by me) for wanting that.  As someone who didn't have answers to what was driving the lack of intimacy in my previous marriage, I get it more than you'd ever know.  BUT..... it wasn't the proof that eventually got me unstuck from my situation.  It was realizing that whatever the reason was for all his lack of interest in me didn't matter - I'd tried everything I could do to obtain that interest, and it.didn't.work.  So the final straw was the realization that whatever this was, whatever the reason for it, it was clearly never going to change.  Did I love him?  Yes.  Did I want to be able to say that I had ridden the ups and downs of marriage and remained steadfast?  Yes.  And more than anything, I didn't want to hurt the kids or even my ex by deciding to break up our family.  At the heart of it all, I had good intentions, strong love, caring and concern for all those involved.  It was only when I saw that Iiiiii was supposed to be as important a part of that equation as the rest of them that I saw how lopsided things had become.  And that I began to examine how our lives would play out if I just stayed the course - now knowing that there was no hope of change.  And suddenly I felt like a caged animal.  I simply could not envision choosing to spend the rest of my life this way.  I could not let my kids see a half-happy me every day, and think that was a good mom.  I could not decide to let them see this marriage as their example of what marriage was supposed to be, and what they should be looking for in their own future, and settling for.  And I needed to stop seeing myself as one fifth of my family (2 parents, 3 kids), and instead see myself as fully half of the marriage - from which the rest of the family grew out of.  If the foundation is half broken, why keep trying to hold up a growing house on top of it?

What I learned later on was just how unhappy I had been.  I thought I was doing such a good job of hiding it.  After all, I kept hiding it from myself - pushing it down and trying to make it all not matter.  My ex and I rarely fought, and almost never in front of the kids.  So they weren't being harmed from our lacklustre marriage.  Fast forward years later - to about 4 years ago - a year or so after my ex and I finally separated.  To a time when I was in a healthy, wonderful relationship that emanated outward, when my daughter and son separately told me "Mom, you laugh so much more now.  It's like you're happy now."  I hadn't realized that they'd ever seen me as anything but happy.  I have repeatedly been told by coworkers and friends that they'd never have known anything was ever wrong in my life because I'm always so happy and cheerful and outgoing.  And here my kids were, saying how much different I was now.  My brothers have both told me separately that they've never seen me happy like this in my adult life.  That I'm just a different person now that I'm not saddled with the underlying issues they could never put their finger on.  My sister has been suffering through nearly a decade of issues in her own marriage now, and for years now, my siblings and I have this sense of her being adrift.  You can't even put your finger on how it's being shown to us - she laughs, she enjoys her daughters, she is kind and outgoing.  But there is some light inside that is so dim right now that despite all outward appearance, we can all sense it.  She was SO surprised when I told her recently how evident this "adrift" thing is to those of us who have known her for her whole life.  She had no idea it was showing.  How? What can she do differently?  Nothing.  It's at your core.  And she didn't even know it was showing.  She's been staying in her marriage for her two young daughters, thinking that they're happy too.  That they don't notice.  And maybe they don't.  But they will sure as hell see a difference once she's out of the woods.

Know that I and almost everyone else here have been in your shoes with the need for proof, and many of us for the reason why the issue exists.  And most of us learn the invaluable lesson that it.just.doesn't.matter.  You are dealing with an issue that won't go away.  And it's our job as survivors to make you think about that.  You don't have to see it right now, but we would be remiss to not mention it when we know how important that point is.

I wish you well -

Kel

Hi again,
Kel, I think you advocate a really essential and important point.

This is how I feel this has culminated lately, and this weekend, I started a heavy talk with my wife.. We are into 3-4 days now of pretty much continous talk in the evenings, everyday life goes steady on, and try not to worry the kids.

Her response is less. Few word, think a lot, and respond to me talking in a slow manner, eyes fixed on me, and she says she is shocked and sorry. I feel her response is missing spontanous reactions, and inner feelings how this feels to her.

I have asked about all issues, situations, indications, everything. I spelled it all out.

At first she responded the next day by returning some of my arguments, trying to neutralize/delete them all, but 4th evening, she admitted, she had taken notice of her own behaviour, and said she could see that she look at women, like I suggested. It was a huge relief, but I made little mess about that, as I want her to feel as our conversation is a "safe place"..

Still, she is a little unclear why she does this, as it is because she looks at things/persons she like, and not because of attraction/excitement...(?) If she admits looking at women, would any typical hetero women stare like she does...? And scratch her wrists, and run the finger across her lips..?

She is seeing a therapist into hypnosis, next week, and wants help to seek if herself is concealing issues/have put a heavy lid on the kettle..

She has also suggested lie detector.
Anyone with experience? (forgive me, have not search for older threads about this). By now, my head feels like having run a marathon this week.

Thanks for the responses :-)