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July 17, 2019 7:18 pm  #21


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

I am seeing a lot of two-timing amongst the lesbians.  One a man, one or two a woman.  Along comes someone who is considerate and knows how to be a good husband and father and I think they think here is a man who I might be able to raise a family with.

But the heart is still with the lesbian love - that's where the peace and happiness is.

 

July 18, 2019 7:53 am  #22


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

lily wrote:

I am seeing a lot of two-timing amongst the lesbians.  One a man, one or two a woman.  Along comes someone who is considerate and knows how to be a good husband and father and I think they think here is a man who I might be able to raise a family with.

But the heart is still with the lesbian love - that's where the peace and happiness is.

 

Indeed, Lily, indeed.

I believe that was the essence of my experience. 

ADSJ

 

July 18, 2019 9:59 pm  #23


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

I think it is testament to both how strong the impulsion to have children is and how primary the need for romantic love is.

so here I am doing my best to understand what it's like for them but it's sure not reciprocal.

What I struggle with is the dyed in the wool sense of righteous entitlement to marry whom they want, when they're not in love with them - it's a sin of the heart, isn't it.  

And it's someone that they like for their kindness, and good qualities as a partner.  and it's dance around the mulberry bush rather than admit they don't love you.  what the hell!  where's a good swear word when you need it.

We're the ones who get confused, we tend to think they share in that confusion, but they aren't confused, they've known all along and just stringing you a line, no guilt, no sense of responsibility, and this is your best friend???  I start to struggle at this point, like perhaps I could have a nap and wake up 19 again and meet a good man to have a dance with..
 

 

July 19, 2019 1:40 pm  #24


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

lily wrote:

......... what the hell!  where's a good swear word when you need it ..

Motherfucker!
 There you go Lily


KIA KAHA                       
 

July 19, 2019 4:58 pm  #25


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

Ellexoh_nz wrote:

lily wrote:

......... what the hell!  where's a good swear word when you need it ..

Motherfucker!
 There you go Lily

AMEN to that !  

 

July 19, 2019 7:25 pm  #26


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

.

Last edited by MJM017 (August 14, 2021 10:30 pm)


No - It's not too late. It's not hopeless. Even there, there's something I can do. I just have to find the will. Ikiru (1952), film directed by Akira Kurosawa 
     Thread Starter
 

July 19, 2019 10:01 pm  #27


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

MJM, that comment about free pass hit a nerve for me tonight, because it is more than just a free pass.  It is a “you poor thing.”

Last edited by OnMyOwnTwoFeet (July 19, 2019 10:02 pm)

 

July 21, 2019 3:52 pm  #28


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

speaking as a straight woman having to deal with a few of these 'polyamory, bisexual, ooh goodness I'm confused' women one of the problems I have is they are so pushy and don't seem to have an idea of boundaries - users, you know.  sorry I am rattling with anger after speaking to one.  I just know she is going to go find her the best man she can and she even said what fun it was playing with their attraction to her.  Oh she will tell you she is honest, will tell you she's one of the above but it doesn't matter what you say she is going to snow a straight man into having a family with her and yet she is already in love with a woman who has just done the same - hidden her sexuality and gone for a nice straight man.  and they're so charming!  she seems so nice but then you realise she is pushing you around to get what she wants.  and omg when I pulled her up the first time it was all ooh, pretty look of shamefulness but then she just keeps on doing the same.  she was acting again, omg.

I am 40 years older than her and I am looking forward to seeing the back of her because I can see it will be endless efforts of trying to protect myself - and failing.  That's the point of this post - to tell you husbands that what you married, it's impossible to deal with for me, let alone if you are a man and fallen for her.  
and the only thing I can say is be pushy right back - the only thing I am finding works at all is to straight up push back - use the 'no' word.

Last edited by lily (July 21, 2019 3:57 pm)

 

July 21, 2019 5:30 pm  #29


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

Religion again:  annnnnd, probablyba little rant from me today—

One thing TGT has done for me is to really help me clarify “what morality is.” 

In my church, we focus a lot on free agency and making choices—and the idea that we make choices to become Godly. This is absolutely foundational in my church—the very reason for everything is that God wants us make choices, and we exercise our free will in ways that not only show our desire to choose good, but that by acting, and choosing, we are accountable, and that means we are  more Godly.  And then Christ makes up the difference when our choices—even in our best efforts or our worst—cause harm.

But!  Then when it comes to standards of living (call them commandments-plus, encompassing my church’s norms and interpretations and emphases):

When it comes to living standards, it gets down into lists of do’s and don’t’s, without a lot of emphasis on the why that underlies it all. Thenlist becomes more important than everything else. I mean, if you work for a company or go to a school or belong to a volunteer group or HOA, there are rules. And usually the “why” of those rules is emphasized so that you can make choices that fit the group values.

So I think God is this way too—the rules are for reasons, and those reasons are more important than the rules themselves. Consider the reasons always. focus on the greatest two commandments on which “hang all the law and the prophets”: to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. When it is unclear what to do, focus on the reason behind the rule. This is the very nature of the legal system and higher court interpretations of law as well, and it also encompasses feminist criticism and other kinds of social constructs and the entire field of philosophy. Etc.

So why when it comes to religion, do people put the cart before the horse?  Making the rule into their God instead of allowing God to breathe life into our rules and social mores?

Anyhow, I really get bothered when we emphasize the act of sex itself as the thing that is important. We talk about “morality” and we mean sex!  We talked about “virtue.” And we mean sex!  We tak about “modesty” and we mean sex!  NO!  It is how we treat people, and sex is a part of that, and can be used for good or bad. What is essential is valuing another person’s agency. Valuing a person's Individuality enough to let them make choices to direct their own lives.

If someone is falsely imprisoned, it is a huge huge travesty because then as a society we have taken away their ability to make choices and direct their own lives. Murder, kidnapping, hostage taking—these are different flavors of the same thing—taking away someone’s ability to direct their own life.

I also get bothered by the distortion of compassion and forgiveness and restitution and reconciliation. I am a compassionate and forgiving person!  Granted, I am kinda angry right at this moment, but I am just so exhausted by me not mattering—like everyone deserves compassion but me. And reconciliation requires two people—not infinite concessions from me until I cease to exist.

So my point is that although in some ways, religion has possibly kept me in this mess longer than I should have stayed (destructive relationship before I knew about TGT)—the very basic premises of my religion are much more clear to me and because of my lived  experience, I better understand why the biggest evil is taking away someone’s autonomy. In my religion,, the most hellish part  of hell is that you are in “prison,” no longer able to choose for yourself.

I am not even being careful to tie up this little rant in a nice little bow—except to say that I understand through my own life now that the  fundamentals of morality are not about sex or any specific rule: they are about love. Love requires honesty and respect and personal responsibility and empathy. Or it is not love.  And I understand that much more than I did before, and appreciate all the things that—through my religion—have come back to me about the value of each soul—including MY soul—as I have been going through this time of feeing imprisoned, and knowing that no Matter how surface nice my jailer appears, the effect on me has been destructive in my core.

Last edited by OnMyOwnTwoFeet (July 21, 2019 5:38 pm)

 

July 22, 2019 6:09 am  #30


Re: How Religion Got Me Out This Marriage

well obviously we don't have complete free choice - our choices are constrained.  A gay person can't choose to wake up straight in the morning any more than a leopard can change its spots.

I used to be into religion but I'm not any more and somewhere along the line I read a book by Richard Dawkins called The Selfish Gene.  It was an interesting read and I cried when I got near the end of the book, I didn't want it to finish!

One of the things he talked about in it was an experiment that had been done into human morality.  A questionnaire, a whole range of finely graded scenarios - what would you do.  It was asked across all the races and all the major religions.  Fascinatingly there was a massive agreement - I can't remember precisely but I think it was 90 or even 90something percent of people answered the same way.  It appears that we have a finely tuned agreement about who we would rescue first in a train wreck.

okay so sitting down and answering a questionnaire is a world away from being in the situation - other factors are going to come into play.  what actually happens is going to be more variable isn't it.  But there's still this huge agreement of what is the moral thing to do and all I can think is that for my ex he would have answered the questionnaire same as everyone else - he knew what he was doing but he didn't feel guilty.  it's like his morality was bypassed emotionally.

 

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