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April 23, 2019 7:29 am  #1


divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

I know the laws are different in every state, but what can all you forum people tell me about being able to speak freely with your children after divorce.  Teens and young adults.

Third parties—the law could include your adult children in this? 

And what about not saying anything to cause harm? For GID spouse, could it be construed as harm for you to tell anyone—even your teen and young adult children—the truth, even if you are careful in telling it?

How have you all handled this?

 

April 23, 2019 8:40 am  #2


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

   My divorce decree does not state anything about disclosure, nor did my lawyer tell me that it was illegal under any state law in the state in which I live. 
    I do not have minor children, so "parental alienation" and custody is not an issue for me.  I am free to tell my adult son whatever I want.  However, my divorce severed all financial ties between us, as I receive neither child support nor maintenance from my ex; this seems like something to ask your lawyer, especially if it concerns either of those. 
   
  

 

April 23, 2019 5:09 pm  #3


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

I'm a lawyer, and I am not aware of any state in which there would be any kind of prohibition about speaking freely with your children. I assume you are not talking about a situation where there have been allegations of child abuse, or where you've been prohibited from having contact with them.

Most child development experts will agree that parents should not manipulate their children to take sides during a divorce.

But, you shouldn't be expected to go to the extreme of lying to them just to avoid saying something that, while true, might embarrass your STBX.

Are you dealing with a court order or something that prohibits you from "disparaging" your ex to the kids?

Last edited by walkbymyself (April 23, 2019 5:09 pm)

 

April 26, 2019 1:37 pm  #4


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

Walkbymyself: could I pm you?
No allegations. No intent to manipulate. Have just seen the kinds of orders that prohibit "disparaging" or "causing harm" and instructing third parties to avoid this too.

     Thread Starter
 

April 26, 2019 6:57 pm  #5


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

Sure, no problem.

 

May 1, 2019 8:47 am  #6


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

I have one of those court orders. Part of the problem is that the STBX is so sensitive that everything is seen as disparaging or trying to disrupt hir relationship with the children. Recently one of mine had a tough break up and doesn't even want to be around her ex. She is still hurting but they have mutual friends and will find themselves at the same parties, etc. I felt awful because I didn't feel I could tell her that I really do understand what it is like to be in the same room with someone who has really hurt you and have to put on a happy face. I mean I have lived it and still am every time I drop them at the STBX's place. Telling her that, though, could be twisted and made to look like I am trying to harm their relationship or that I am trying to make my daughter chose sides.

It has been challenging.

 

May 1, 2019 9:38 am  #7


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

Stronger,
   Challenging, indeed.  Being muzzled after the fact, after one has finally reached the place of being able to leave, is further abuse and adds to our trauma.  That you must guard what you say to your daughter is outrageous, especially when "disparagement" is measured by what an aggrieved narcissist decides is disparaging, like some twisted version of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."  Someone who is constantly on the lookout for slights, and delights in a the victim narrative, can turn anything into disparagement.  
   Is it possible to have a conversation with your daughter about confidentiality between the two of you, a kind of "what's said at Mom's house/with Mom stays between the two of us?" agreement?

 

May 2, 2019 3:52 pm  #8


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

What I really hate about these nondisparagement orders, is that they're so dependent on who's interpreting them.  Putting them into practice in real life is so much harder than they look on paper.

In theory, for example, saying someone is gay shouldn't be "disparaging" because we've gone past the point where it's illegal or considered immoral.  

Personally, I don't think it's violating this court order just to extend empathy to your kid who is going through a tough break-up, but the problem is it's a vague prohibition and you don't want to run the risk.  

 

May 2, 2019 4:29 pm  #9


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

WBM, I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

 

May 4, 2019 10:33 am  #10


Re: divorce, restraining orders, parental alienation: Forced Legal Closet?

OOHC,awhile back, I told the kids that if their "dad" asks questions about me (other than a vague "how's mom?" type question) that they are to simply tell hir that they don't know or tell hir to ask me those specific questions. I have made it clear that I am not doing anything wrong, but I am just trying to move on and keep my personal life private. On this particular subject, I do believe my daughter and I have reached an understanding. She knows who I am referring to even though I have not said directly. She is 20, so I certainly can legally tell her whatever I want. However, I don't want to put her in a position where she feels like she needs to keep a secret or something from her younger siblings - especially my other daughter. The 2 are very close. 

But yes, the whole situation is messed up because my STBX likes to play the victim, so everything is seen as disparaging or trying to make my kids chose sides.

WBM, I can say my spouse is trans. That is fine. It is obvious. However, I can't say, according to my attorney, that my spouse lied to me and deceived me for 20+ years. Even though it is true, I need to say "I feel as though my spouse ........" The first statement could get me in trouble. Even if it is determined to be true, it would still cost a lot of money and aggravation to get it all sorted out. The second statement is okay because that is clearly my feelings and I am not staying it as fact.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I HATE that, and as OOHC points out, it is just more abuse and further adds to the trauma I (we) have experienced. More importantly though, when it comes to  telling my story, it takes away my authority and opens the door for disagreement. For example, if I say, "The sky is bluer today than it has been in a week." That is a much stronger statement than, ""I think the sky is bluer today than it has been in a week." The second one is just begging for someone to say, "No, last Wednesday was more beautiful." Plus, the entire tome of the 2nd statement is just meeker. Adding that "think/feel/seems" qualifier when speaking about my spouse's behavior, just lessens it. 

The part that really gets me though, is that those saying something positive don't have to add it. People will say "Your spouse was so brave to come out and dare to live as her authentic self." We don't hear, "I think your spouse was so brave....." 

I could go on, but I won't.

Sorry for the tangent. It just frustrates me to no end.

 

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