OurPath (formerly SSN) Open Forum » Day Four

drewch · March 6, 2019 12:58 pm

My wife and I have been struggling, on and off, up and down, for at least a couple years. Our marriage has some problems of its own, but we have been (I have been) trying to work through some of them (I've used Lee Baucom's save the Marriage system, and just finished Mort Fertel's Marriage Fitness program, both on my own, though she listened in on a couple of the Marriage Fitness calls (but didn't like the idea of putting problems aside temporarily to work on building back the love, then, at the right time, tackling the problem(s)).

Our sex life (such as it is) has been mostly me initiating, getting shut down, and resenting her for it. I should add that I have only ever slept with her - we were high-school sweethearts. She, however, lost her virginity to her boyfriend before me, and in college (we broke up for a short time), she slept with two other guys - one she met while she summered away from home, and another she met in a bar and went home with the same night (not a one-night stand, but short-lived).

Anyway - I could never understand how she could sleep with someone she barely knew, but would not with me on any kind of regular basis. It was sometimes weeks between, sometimes months (it's now been over two months with no end in sight).

Over the years, my resentment has built, and she mentioned being unsatisfied in our relationship a couple years ago. I made some changes (that didn't last), and she brought it up again the following year. This time I bought the Save the Marriage system, listened to Lee Baucom's podcasts, and tried to make changes again. Once again, I didn't keep up with it, though I thought some of the changes stuck. Not enough.

In September of 2018, she told me she wasn't happy, and, without saying the word, said she was considering separation/divorce. She has alluded to it again several times since. I dove back into the Save the Marriage system, and we read the 5 love languages, and I've tried hard to consistently fill her love tank (acts of service and quality time). Podcasts, articles online, books from the library, etc.

We've discussed the things that bother us, and I have tried really hard to be better about the things she mentioned (clutter around the house, etc.), and I told her the one thing I would change is that I want her to want me more. This was on a short trip together for an overnight to a city a couple hours away. After we got home from that, she came home from a work-related thing in tears, sat down on the bed and told me that she couldn't give me what I wanted - she had tried for years, but she couldn't want me more. I listened, devastated, and asked how often she might want to make love. She said she didn't know. I asked if she would consider scheduling sex. Not something she was interested in. I thought (but didn't say) - all of the changes I've been making; all of the improvements I've been trying to make to myself because you've told me you want those things to change, and you can't / won't even TRY to do the ONE THING I have requested of you."

A couple of days later, I stupidly opened an account on a dating site.

It was open for only a few hours, and I browsed it, but never really used it at all. I didn't really even set up an account, other than a picture.

She found out, and nearly kicked me out of the house that night. I ended up sleeping in the guest room.

That was when I bought the Marriage Fitness program, and started doing that. It seemed to help, some, though we're still climbing out of that dumb mistake of mine.

I thought things were improving. Slowly, but still improvement. Then, this past Sunday morning, she clearly wanted to discuss something (which I always have to steel myself for, because god only knows what direction the discussion will take and what I'll have to change now). She started by asking if I wanted an open marriage. I said no. Later in the conversation she said she was not attracted to men. She said that she had always said that she wasn't visually stimulated (which is true - she had said that to me many years ago). But she said she had found a stash of old Playboy magazines (which were my uncle's I stole when I was a kid... I don't even know why I still had them), and something happened when she looked at them. She asked me not to shut her out; that she had only told her counselor (at her first session - she has another scheduled soon) and a couple of her friends.

I found SSN the next day, and this forum yesterday. It's comforting to know that this isn't just happening to me (but also saddening). I spent yesterday and the day before reading "How to Lose Your Wife to Another Woman" which had some parallels, but not fully (which, I guess, is probably how a lot of these situations go).

I should add that one of the friends she told is bisexual, and they have only know each other for a year and a half, but they are both working moms, have a kid the same age (our youngest is the same age as her only child - we have two), and work in the same profession. She has recently been going out with this woman a lot (so much that our oldest guesses that mommy is with her any time I tell her that she is "out with a friend" (even if that is not the friend she is out with). They have had a couple overnight trips (maybe 3). She has "gone to dinner" with this friend several times, coming home very late, and on at least two occasions not coming home until the next morning ("I didn't think I was safe to drive home, I drank so much."). I spite of all this, I never once considered she might be a lesbian.

I asked her last night if she had acted on this. She told me no. She told me that she didn't even know how she would feel about herself acting on it. I want to believe her. Last night's discussion went well beyond that question, and dredged up my insecurities - that I feel inadequate when she rejected me for sex, and that often I would compare myself to her previous partners also (who were all nearly 20 years ago). Fair or not, right or not, I've had a hard time moving past that, probably because I have not slept with anyone else but her. Regardless, we had another "talk" before bed last night. I felt like, when I tell her how I feel about something, she turns it back to her (Her: "Asking about scheduling sex right after that conversation that was so hard for me wasn't the right time" - Me: "I feel like I don't bring up lots of things because I fear it is not the right time, but then when I do, I'm proven right, so I feel like I can't do anything right, with us, at work, whatever." - Her: "That seems like something you should work on, huh? I can't change that feeling for you.").

She said all day after the "coming out" conversation, that she wished she could unsay it, that she thinks that's all I see now. I didn't know what to say then, but I texted her this morning:
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"Hey

You said you wished you could unsay it. I don't wish that. I don't wish to be in the dark about something that big to the most important person in my life.

I don't know what it means for us - for me - for you - I just want to make our relationship better, even if our marriage isn't meant to be. At least not how we imagined it.

I love you."
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Good god, sorry for that mess of a story. I wasn't sure how to explain the whole of it (and certainly there is more I could add), but I think this will do for now.

I'm just lost, frankly. I don't know what happens next. I'm terrified that she is lying to me, and that she IS in a physical relationship with her friend (I'm 100% certain it is at least an emotional affair). I'm terrified for my children if we split - which seems inevitable at the moment, just a matter of how long we wait. I'd be willing to consider some sort of open marriage, but I'm not sure it's what I want, or even whether I would be capable of living in that kind of arrangement.

What's next?

Rob · March 7, 2019 8:29 am

drewch,

Welcome. An honest, heartfelt post you made. I identified a lot with your story.. .your statements like;

"..Our sex life (such as it is) has been mostly me initiating, getting shut down, and resenting her for it.."

Yes, I look back and can see my having to initiate as the number 1 and only sign of TGT.. I thought all woman are like that. Its not true ...not true at all.. but we love/loved our spouses so deeply.

"..which I always have to steel myself for, because god only knows what direction the discussion will take and what I'll have to change now .."

Yes, Iike you I always had to change .. Like you it got to the point where I knew my wife and knew how she would react to everything... the weather, the TV show etc.. she would react not well to most things..

I think from your post/story you're feeling the enormous exhaustion of trying to make someone happy that is not true to themselves.. We love them so fiercely but they do not love us the same. It does feel like when they've depleted us of all we could do they decide that, no , they are gay. It answers so many questions for us. Not everything mind you... I see the narcissism also that I put up related to maybe but independent of TGT.

For me the relief from the exhaustion of trying to please a gay (and narcissistic) spouse has been a blessing from God and heaven. For example, things such as trying to initiate sex for hours/days/weeks/months... not normal and not an issue anymore. Anger/rage/drama ...not a problem. Lies and deceit..nope. A hug is a real hug and an I love you is sincere and holds no hidden agenda or lack of fierceness. Peace/calmness/safety I am blessed with now.

While you may feel lost now...

First, I urge you to be kind to yourself and not beat yourself up...you/we did all you could ..more than is humanly possible,..we loved fiercely and loyally and would do anything for our spouse . We are, if I can say it, so much more than they deserve or comprehend.

Second, start building a support system for yourself.. it is a shock and one needs help..don't go it alone.

Last edited by Rob (March 7, 2019 8:32 am)

drewch · March 7, 2019 9:28 am

Thanks @Rob. I, luckily, had an appointment with my therapist (my 2nd session) scheduled yesterday afternoon. Clearly this was the big point of conversation. Re: my own insecurities about my wife's sexual past, I was told to "not take it personally," "she was 20 years old, and there are many things going on physiologically, etc. at that stage," etc. etc. Interestingly, it took me until that moment to realize the truism: "People don't do things TO YOU, they do things FOR THEMSELVES." I've heard that and read that a dozen times, but it never clicked until that moment. In fact, she even told me that those encounters were her trying to find something, and that she came away from them without finding what she was looking for; broken.

So, whether or not she "knew" at that point, there were indications 20 years ago, for her at least. At the time I was just pissed and hurt that she would do that kind of thing, even if we weren't together.

This morning I realized that there are so many contradictory feelings and thoughts in my head about all of this:

Initially I thought, "Oh, god! There's nothing I can do about this!" - which was a relief, because I've been trying so hard to change and do the things I know she wants me to do, that she's told me she wants me to do, to improve the relationship.

Shortly after, I thought, "Oh, god! There's nothing I can do about this!" - which was and is terrifying, such that I have so little control over what happens from this point on.

I thought this morning that I feel so much better about where our marriage has been with this new knowledge. Then almost immediately thought that I feel so much worse about where our marriage is and is going.

It's hard to get a grip on what and how to feel. But it's only day 5, so I'm sure that's not abnormal. I think I've seen the "roller coaster" analogy in other posts in the forum, and that's exactly what it feels like. I cry in the car on my way to work, listening to the SSN Voices podcast. I can't focus on my work (less so than normal).

I still want my wife; I still love her; I want a good relationship with her, whether together or apart, for our young children.

But I'm also starting to think about what our lives apart look like, because I don't see an alternative at this point, if she is honest with herself. And if I am honest with myself too.

I've sent in a contact form, asking for a contact near me so I can talk to someone F2F who has also dealt with this, but I am getting massive comfort and help from the forum here, and from the podcast, and from recommended readings from the website (I just started "Unseen-Unheard" at 3am this morning, when I woke up and couldn't sleep).

I'm not eating much, which I know is not good. My sleep is erratic as hell. I had a bottle of wine for dinner Monday night (just a bottle of wine). At least it was decent wine.

I'm afraid for our (my) finances. I'm afraid for my living arrangements if she tries to keep the house (which she can't afford on her own - nor can I tbh, but I could make it work). We have a ton of debt. But mostly I want my kids to be okay and impacted as little as possible in their daily lives. They didn't ask for this. Though, neither did I - nor my wife, I suppose.

Regardless, thanks for listening to my blubbering, and thanks for all the support and sharing all your own stories!

OnMyOwnTwoFeet · March 7, 2019 12:15 pm

I just wanted to say how I empathize with your pain and confusion and fear. I am so glad one of the men on the forum has replied to you. I am no example of grace in all this. But yes, definitely: roller coaster! And buckle up, cuz it is going to be a long long ride.

I also totally understand your two versions of “there is nothing I can do about this!” Both a relief and also a great sadness.

On the relief side of things: It’s like, finally I realize that all the messages I internalized about how I was not good enough or the relationship problems were all my fault—they were not my fault! Although, I gotta tell you, my husband still likes to say he did what he did because he felt alienated from me, or because I spent too much time with the kids, or because because because. So don’t be surprised if you get some more of that, especially if your spouse starts to say they are “bisexual.” (I am not saying bisexual is not real, just that when a spouse defines themselves this way, they allow themselves to keep blaming you.) And this really messes with your head, especially when that has been a pattern in your relationship as it has been in yours and in many of our straight/gay relationships. You have so internalized the “If only I were this, then she would love me”—it is at a really subconscious level.

So repeat repeat repeat: “This is not my fault. This is not my fault, this is not my fault.” Sure we are not perfect, but this is not normal “marriage problems”; this is a “problem marriage.”

Also watch out for—at least it is this way for me—although I feel intellectual relief from those old daily rejections, I had been working on those over the years already, and I and was actually feeling strong about myself again right before I learned about my husband being gay or bi or however he defines himself today. (In fact, I think me being strong emotionally probably partly, in my husband’s warped sense of things, made him feel justified acting more openly on his attractions to men at that time.) Anyhow, so the net EMOTIONAL result for me Is that I actually feel emotionally utterly rejected now, and all used up, and like I do not matter even to the one who “loved” me the most. So on a gut emotional level, ALL those criticisms, all those “I am not good enough”s from the past, plus even new ones that I never thought of before—I am more than ever fighting the feeling of “this is my fault because I am just not good enough for anyone or anything.”

I also understand your second, “there’s nothing I can do about this.” When we thought it was our fault, even though that was all painful and untrue, we still had this belief that our spouses loved us, and that if we just figured out what we needed to do, he or she would eventually feel and show that love again. We had hope.

Anyhow, getting our emotions inline with what is reality now—that is the hard thing. And it is especially hard for those of us whose spouses still are blaming, and are still saying they are “not sure” about their attractions to us. Like they know those patterns keep us in the game of hoping we can do something to win their love. Those patterns have served them so well. But they have hurt us.

Take care of yourself. Hard stuff ahead.

drewch · March 7, 2019 1:42 pm

Thanks, @OnMyOwnTwoFeet!

You know, my cousin is a lesbian, and she and her wife are separating / divorcing at the moment, and it makes me wonder whether gay / bisexual or any other LGBTQ combinations (minus the str8 spouse) in a marriage are also considered MOMs?

Not that it matters, particularly, it's just never something I thought about until (very) recently.

Forced myself to eat lunch just now. Didn't feel hungry at all, but I know I need to eat... <sigh>

Ellexoh_nz · March 7, 2019 2:08 pm

drewch wrote:
.....You know, my cousin is a lesbian, and she and her wife are separating / divorcing at the moment, and it makes me wonder whether gay / bisexual or any other LGBTQ combinations (minus the str8 spouse) in a marriage are also considered MOMs?Not that it matters, particularly, it's just never something I thought about until (very) recently.

That's a really interesting observation.....I see the Mixed Orientation 'Marriage' as having a Straight person in it but when you think about it it could be any combination. Did MOMs originate because of the Straight/Gay, bi r'ships? I don't know....

drewch · March 7, 2019 3:59 pm

I feel like I read somewhere that some MOMs with an open marriage are made up of a gay man and a lesbian, who are then able to put on a public face of heterosexuality, but are able to mutually live their lives in private as their orientations require. Maybe it was on the Voices podcast recently, re: Str8 spouses in China, where it is still 101% taboo to be gay.

It makes sense to me, even if it's not my situation, that it could be the case.

In my cousin's case, her wife, I think (I never got to know her really well) is trans male / identifies as male.

I'm not as familiar with the terminology as I should be, but I have to wonder now if that had an impact on their marriage not working out...

Ellexoh_nz · March 7, 2019 4:07 pm

It seems all a bit confused and frenetic. In the end..We should only apply terms and descriptions that reflect our own individual situations right?

ByHisWounds · March 8, 2019 1:26 am

drewch,
I tend to hit the end of the day exhausted, fall asleep then wake and be kept awake with anxiety about my family and their future. Do any of us really sleep soundly in the beginning?

I sought both the community and distraction of the forum and read your postings. I just wanted you to know that I was touched by your stories.

I will wright more but am placing boundaries on myself and limiting my post as I know that I need sleep right now.

One day at a time.

Brokenhearted · March 8, 2019 7:28 am

Drewch, finding this forum has been one of the few bright spots in the last two months. I’m still in the limbo phase, it sucks. We did our first couples counseling yesterday. Not a great experience, hearing someone give opinions from 30,000 feet based on 50 minutes of talking and walking back into the real world with no solutions. I’m sure it’s a process, like everything in this. Nothing is easy unfortunately. This is the ultimate test. I take to heart the words of others to take care of yourself. We likely haven’t in years and it’s time to start feeling that personal care again. Plus, this test has no known start and finish, it’s not a marathon but a new journey and you need to rested, fed and cared for to participate. I was going to say complete but I don’t think this ends. Say you get divorced now your journey includes all the calculus of meeting someone new, learning them and ultimately working them into your family life...then maintaining that relationship. It never ends, just chapter upon chapter. So take care of yourself, go to concerts, connect with old friends, take time away from home, politely decline additional stress at work to have more personal time. Be prepared to hear what you tell yourself you need and then focus on getting it. Onward.

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Day Four

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drewch wrote:

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