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January 2, 2018 3:41 pm  #51


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Walkbymyself,

A warm supportive e hug and welcome.

First, you are not alone..we think we are,but God puts people on this earth to help us..they come in many forms.


Second, you don't have to post your story..we get it.

Third,  your daughter sounds like a really good person.  Give yourself a pat on the back for raising her well.

Fourth, money is an issue but don't let that keep you forever stuck in a marriage where your husband is hurting you (and it doesn't have to be physical abuse). Just taking small steps each day for yourself is a start...posting here is a step.
Small baby steps..there is no timeframe for dealing with this.
Just know that it is not forever.


I can say my GX had no money of her own but it didnt stop her from taking money out of the joint savings to hire her lawyer...didnt phase her in the least.  I then went and took money out of the emergency funds for my lawyer..when she raged at me I said I declare an emergency.  Where I live it is all joint marital money to be split ..and a person can divorce their spouse and they are entitled to future support by law.  Please don't assume you will be destitute and won't be able to pay a lawyer without talking to one first.
I had many fiancial fears but they did not come to pass.


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

January 2, 2018 4:28 pm  #52


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Walkbymyself,

Please know that you can consult with a lawyer free of charge.  The initial consult is always free.  It's your way of assessing whether this lawyer and you are on the same page.  But they can give you lots of information about your rights in your state, and what to expect, based upon your specific situation.  The more details you walk in the door with, the better their advice can be.  If you walk in the door with his paycheck or your combined last year's income (specifying his), then they can tell you what you'll get for child support (in IL where I live, it's a flat percentage of what the parent paying support makes - it literally doesn't matter what the other parent makes or has at ALL.)  You should also see if you can get a list of your assets (including what's in each of your 401K accounts, if you have that), and any other such accounts.  If you glean the info on all of that plus debts and what the house is likely worth, then you can do the numbers and figure out the future a lot better than the vague idea you have right now.

It's true that you can't know exactly what you'll get until it goes to court - or until he agrees upon it.  But you can find out what's typical and standard, and expect to get that.  When you're to the point of putting down the retainer on the lawyer, then you really don't care if they know that you're doing it.  It's water under the bridge at that point.

You don't need to tell us your specifics of your story if you feel unsafe doing so.  This is a place of support.  We don't really need the details.  The better details we have, the more specifically we can help.  But we'd never want anyone to do that at the risk of being found out.  That's not our purpose.

I understand you wanting to hold off on telling your daughter until she'd done with this last semester of college.  Just know that there will be something else after that (she's job hunting), and then something else after that (new job!), etc.  There will be no perfect time.  You can try to avoid the worst time, but there is no good time.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

January 2, 2018 4:30 pm  #53


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Cross posted with Kel -- Rob, thank you so much for the words of comfort.

I don't see a thread for my exact question, so I'm throwing it out here: I know for a fact that my husband is attracted to men.  He doesn't know I know this.  I know for a fact that he was unfaithful to me a little over a decade ago.  He doesn't know I know that, either.  I strongly suspect he was cheating on me with men, but that's irrelevant.  Cheating is cheating.

When this all came to light, we were dealing with a deep crisis situation, and in the moment I had to remain steady and focused on saving everything -- which he readily acknowledged at the time.  I did not make an issue of the infidelity, because at the time I actually had worse problems to deal with.  I also believed that he'd made a mistake, and he knew it.  I believed that there would be no more cheating.  I suspect he had resolved in his heart never to cheat again, but as I said, we didn't discuss any of this.  We were in crisis mode.

We are out of that crisis now.  He doesn't know what I've figured out.  I don't know if I know everything there is to know right now.

A few weeks ago, I was straightening up our TV room.  He keeps his laptop here, where he can sit on the sofa and the cord of his laptop will reach the outlet.  Typically, as I'm straightening up, I'll find bits of change that have fallen out of his pockets in this spot.  This one day, I lifted up his laptop to fluff the sofa cushions underneath, and found a viagra pill.  It can't have been there long, since it was setting on top of the cushion.  It certainly wasn't for my benefit -- my husband has not touched me for over two decades.  I actually went online to see whether there are other medicinal uses for Viagra (there are) that might be appropriate for him (there aren't).  I suppose there's a theoretical possibility that he just needed this in order to masturbate, but it's implausible that the pill would have found itself in this location for that purpose.  This room is on our ground floor, with an entire wall of sliding glass doors, no curtains, no privacy.  It's way too open to the rest of the house as well.  It's not as though I found a viagra in his bathroom.  This fell out of his pants pocket, so it had to have a reason for getting into his pants pocket.

He goes out frequently with friends and comes back in the wee hours of the morning.

I took the pill and set it on the glass-top coffee table, after I'd dusted and cleaned the whole room.  I left it where he had to see it.  The next time we were down watching TV, I briefly left the room to get something from the kitchen, and when I returned it had vanished.

So.  It doesn't prove that he's cheating on me, but it's pretty significant circumstantial evidence, and over the next few days and weeks I became at once both more certain and less certain of myself.

Do you think he's cheating on me again?  I was willing to look the other way once, but not twice.  The worst part is that I know if I bring it up to him directly, I won't believe a word he says anyhow.  It doesn't matter what explanation he gives, whether it's true or not, I have no way of knowing.  I know he lies.

Last edited by walkbymyself (January 2, 2018 4:32 pm)


Relinquere fraudator, vitam lucrari.
 

January 3, 2018 10:39 am  #54


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Yes, I think he's cheating on you.  What's a man even need to put a Viagra in his pocket for unless he's going to take it somewhere for later?  I mean, even if he did have enough privacy to masturbate in the area you found the pill in, why wouldn't he just take it when he first got the pill out of the container?  No one would put a pill in their pocket to take it a few hours later while home - they'd just go take it when they were ready to do so.  They wouldn't carry it around.

You're right though in that confronting him won't get you the truth.  They will do whatever it takes to make us feel like the reality they don't want isn't really happening.  So he'll tell you that he has no idea what you're talking about - what pill?  HE didn't see any pill.  Or he'll say that it wasn't Viagra.  It was a pill for concentrating or whatever.  Or, if he can't think that quickly, he'll say that he was interested in having sex with you again, and a buddy gave him the pill to try.  He was carrying it around in case you suddenly jumped his bones for the first time in 20 years.  Or that he was going to take it and make advances at you, but that when he started to try, you rejected him.  See how easy all of that is to think up?  I can do it, and I don't have an excuse to.  He will never say, "Yeah, busted.  I've been taking them to sleep with other people.  Oopsie - can't believe I f'd up like that.  I was wrong.  How would you like me to make amends and/or make plans to leave?"  There really is no good answer - everything will seem false now since it's not like he came to you with the truth, but that any fessing up he does do is because he's been caught red-handed.  He'll just keep trying to protect his false narrative.

What if you DID know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he'd been cheating again?  What would you feel like doing about it?

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

January 3, 2018 12:37 pm  #55


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Thanks, Kel.  I can't tell you how much I appreciate plain simple honesty and logic.

Coincidentally, my daughter just texted me a "dashboard karaoke" clip of herself driving along belting out "I Will Survive".  

Your reasoning is exactly my reasoning.  I assume he can come up with explanations, but I don't even want to have the debate.  I want someone else to tell me I'm being rational, and that's what you did.

You ask what if I did know beyond a shadow of a doubt.  The thing is, I know for a fact that at some point in the early 2000's he did cheat.  I don't know how often or whether it was a serious relationship, anonymous hookups, whatever.  Those details I don't know.  

So fast forward to now.  He has ample opportunity to go off tomcatting around.  His excuse has always been that he is a "night owl" and loves nightlife.  I used to enjoy nightlife, too, before we were married, but once my daughter was born and I had grown-up responsibilities, I couldn't keep up with him and handle adult responsibilities.  Over the years, he just got into the habit of going out till all hours, even on work nights, and coming in at 4 or 5 in the morning.  He didn't have to worry about handling adult responsibilities because I was there to pick up the slack.  

But I digress.

So you ask what I'd do, and I guess after all these years of his gaslighting me, I wanted to reassure myself that this isn't crazy of me.  I have read a couple of articles online about "grey divorce" and financial issues for older women, and one of them quoted an attorney who impressed me with her approach.  I checked and the firm is in my city, so I think I want to have a consultation and find out whether there are legal arrangements we can formalize, that would protect me financially.  

I might want a legal separation.  I might want to stay in this house or I might not.  Our finances are pretty complicated, because when we married I was just starting out my career while he'd built up a lot on his own -- he owned a co-op apartment, and had a number of investment accounts and things like that.  He gets some income through partnerships, and he has pension rights that I would only get survivor's benefits gpt as long as I remained married to him.

I do want to start building some distance, even if we just sleep in separate bedrooms for a while.  I want to take separate vacations, and I don't want him nickel-and-diming me to death about what I spend.  I want to get a list of ALL of our assets, including assets he thinks are his separate property, and I want username and passwords for all accounts, so I can go online and check them myself.  He's spent so long being secretive about all this, and I've spent so long being trusting and trying to prove to him that I can be trusted and I'm not out to get his money and all that bullshit, but I'm not the one who's been lying for twenty years.  So I don't think I need to prove I can be trusted.  He does.  He has far more to lose right now than I do.


Relinquere fraudator, vitam lucrari.
 

January 3, 2018 1:31 pm  #56


Re: Keeping Their Secret

A legal separation can takes as long as a divorce (average time, 8-10 months), and costs just as much. In many ways, a legal separation is the same as a divorce - both include final custody, visitation, child support, and if appropriate, alimony orders.  Legal separation is for people who need to legally put these things in place, but want to stay legally married - maybe for religious reasons.In many states, your date of separation has legal implications. If you and your spouse are still living in the same house for economic or family reasons, proving that you are really separated can be tricky. Here is a checklist of what you should do if you and he are still living together but separate.


  • Establish and maintain intent to separate permanently or indefinitely.
  • Use separate bedrooms.
  • Do not engage in romantic or sexual intimacy.
  • Stop wearing wedding rings.
  • Don’t shop for your spouse’s food, prepare his meals, or shop for his clothing and other necessities.
  • Don’t let your spouse shop for you, and don’t use his food or other purchases.
  • Do not eat meals together, except for special occasions such as holidays or children’s birthdays.
  • Make each spouse responsible for caring for their own space within the home, such as bedroom.
  • Make each spouse responsible for doing their own laundry.
  • Use a separate and secure computer.
  • Use a separate and secure telephone/cell phone for personal and business calls.
  • Establish separate checking accounts.
  • Cease socializing together, e.g., do not attend parties, movies, theater, etc. together.
  • Do not attend church together.
  • Where there are minor children, interact as parents only where strictly necessary from the children’s perspective and their well-being, e.g., meeting with school officials. If you both attend your child’s game, don’t sit together.
  • Don’t give gifts to your spouse for birthdays, Christmas, anniversary, Valentine’s Day, etc.
  • Let close associates and relatives know that you are not living as man and wife, but are separated within the residence.
  • Have a third party come to the home from time to time to personally observe the two spouses’ separate and distinct living quarters (bedrooms, bathrooms, etc.).
  • Utilize separate entrances to residence if feasible.
  • Be prepared to explain why you are living separately under the same roof, e.g., financial considerations; unavailability of separate residence; easing children’s transition to parental separation, etc.

If your husband has/is already lying to you, then you will have no way of knowing if he's telling you the truth about all undisclosed monies.  You may be able to obtain passwords from him on joint accounts, but you will not know if he has other accounts he's hidden from you.  A lawyer should be able to help you look into that with a forensic accountant.  It'd be worth it if you think he's hiding money from you.

Kel

P.S. - no, you're not crazy.  There is literally no reason for a married man who is also a father to be coming home at 5:00 in the morning.  The only thing open that late, as they say, is legs.  I'm sure the bars aren't open THAT late, are they?  I'd consider hiring a private investigator to tail him to a few of these evenings out.  It might not even matter in your state with regards to fault.  But it might give you some idea of what he's actually doing.  That can be fuel for pushing forward and getting away from someone toxic.

 


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

January 3, 2018 1:53 pm  #57


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Thanks, and as I said, without getting too deeply into the details, I believe he has far more to lose right now than I do.  So I don't actually think he's going to be plundering accounts, but he might try to downplay how much he spends on himself, versus what he thinks I should be allowed to spend on myself.

​I don't need to do more detective work; it's unnecessary.  I have proof to a mathematical certainty that he cheated in the past, if I really need to bring it up.

​We don't have minor children, so there are no issues of child support or visitation.  


Relinquere fraudator, vitam lucrari.
 

January 3, 2018 2:58 pm  #58


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Walkbymyself.

You are not crazy..   Deep in your bones you know.   I had snooped and found all the proof one needs but it didnt change anything.   You're doing everything right.   One cannot live snooping and distrusting...it will eat and gnaw at you..I used to shake.     Should you confront him about the pill you know what you will get .   I know my GX would give me the most evil/sick troubling reply  (there was no pill ..you did not see it)  ..aka gaslighting , you are crazy..which is a horrible feeling.   

You can spare yourself the confrontation and start taking small steps  to emotionally and, eventually totally,  separate from him.   No time table...just slow and steady.   Be kind to yourself...

No you are not crazy..


 

Last edited by Rob (January 3, 2018 2:58 pm)


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

August 28, 2021 8:14 pm  #59


Re: Keeping Their Secret

Dixie wrote:

This is something I am really struggling with right now.  I have always been a strong supporter of LGBT people.   I support their access to all legal and marital rights and their special status under hate crime laws.  I understand the difficulties and outright discrimination they face for merely being born different.  I have always felt this way.  Thus, I respect their caution about coming out and would never out someone intentionally.

HOWEVER, I view my STBX in a completely different light.  He was fully aware of his attraction to men

I believe the same.

Am seeing a therapist who specializes in trauma. It's helped reduce my PTSD symptoms. The difference between her and one who doesn't is like night and day.

She disagrees that my late GIDXH was gay though.  It was child sexual abuse and heart issues she believes. It's frustrating. I mention my hometown so often because no one believes closeted people exist here.  I prefer my city to remain anonymous, but this disbelief is stifling.  I imagine there are some closeted LGBTQ+ people here whose parents live in the Bay Area. The parents house is worth a lot. No one wants to be disinherited.

I'd like to move onto another therapist once the PTSD is manageable. But who? No one has believed me in person.  Writing this is giving me a small panic attack. 

It's an enshrined PC belief that every LGBTQ+ is out in accepting SF.  I'm fearful of being attacked verbally and physically for being seen as a homophobe. He was a horror so that makes him gay.  Thus I believe all LGBTQ+ are abusers and child molesters.  It's easier to shut up & head to my own closet.


Dixie wrote:

And I feel a lot of rage for what he did and thus wish to let him suffer the consequences of being such an asshole.  That is really my objection ... not that he is bi, but that he is a lying, cheating narcissist.  A user, manipulator, and a coward.  Yes, I feel extremely resentful and vindictive.  I had 30 years of my life stolen and my present and future hopes and dreams obliterated.

It's what happened to us.  I'm healing and feeling better. I wanted to have kids & that POS manipulated and strung me along. It was too late one day. 😟   I know healing would go faster if TGT and the m!ndf#ck that it is is seen truthfully.

I was wondering if you all feel ok with who you told, or hold back with friends, loved ones or therapists?


 

Last edited by MJM017 (August 28, 2021 8:15 pm)


No - It's not too late. It's not hopeless. Even there, there's something I can do. I just have to find the will. Ikiru (1952), film directed by Akira Kurosawa 
 

August 28, 2021 9:19 pm  #60


Re: Keeping Their Secret

MJM yes the trauma is real and too often minimised even by professional practitioners.  I was fortunate enough to realise I had complex PTS and sought trauma therapists, who have been validating and helpful. I'm still in recovery but so much better than at the beginning.

His being gay and also abusive is part of the truth of my life and if warranted I'm quite happy to say so. Don't know and don't care if he is fully out or not.

He came out to our kids as soon as our divorce was finalised 2 years ago.  He swore them to secrecy as apparently he didn't want his parents to know (! - he is 51 years old). I found out through a nephew who saw my gxh's facebook posts and asked my sister was he gay. She asked me, I asked my kids, they told me. Said they hated keeping it secret.  I was wise enough by then to not blame them but to simply note that he remained as selfish, manipulative and divisive and destructive as ever. As far as I know Three kids don't see him any more, 2 keep polite but distant touch. Totally their choice, i respect that. He hurt all of us not just me. They all love me, we are close, and i love them.

I was honest and totally invested in my marriage and family. Accepting that his behaviour and the choices he made, made it unsustainable has been very difficult but also liberating and healing. His now admitted gayness completed the puzzle for me. I left but he broke the marriage.

The pain eases but doesn't disappear. Its like a scar that I have on one hand from an old injury.  My hand is fully functional but around the scar there is altered sensation and extra sensitivity. 

I have come to see myself as a survivor and much more than the sum of my scars!

I think everyone here is.

Last edited by Soaplife (August 28, 2021 9:39 pm)

 

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