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March 21, 2017 7:06 am  #411


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean,

This leads me to a very interesting observation and question. I have noticed lately that my gid husband acts like even though I have been upfront in telling him I won't be going out with him in may, I am going out with him in May? What gives? He admits I have told him that, but still carries on like I will do as I am told, like a good little girl. (yeah, sure.....I am) So the question is....does this commonly happen?


Go not quietly into that great, good night......Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
 

March 21, 2017 12:34 pm  #412


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

JJ wrote: "This leads me to a very interesting observation and question. I have noticed lately that my gid husband acts like even though I have been upfront in telling him I won't be going out with him in may, I am going out with him in May? What gives? He admits I have told him that, but still carries on like I will do as I am told, like a good little girl. (yeah, sure.....I am) So the question is....does this commonly happen?"

​Yes I think so. I can only share my experience JJ. Call it narcissism, gay-in-denial, or mental illness, hiding my sexuality for 35+ years almost drove me insane. (I'm going to share additional details but please note that I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim.) It would have been one thing to remain in the closet alone, but I chose to marry and have children. Over time, I hid my sexuality from not only myself & my immediate family, but also from my (then) wife, children, in-laws, and all of our friends. Unable to control my true sexual attraction to men, I turned to gay porn, then male escorts, and finally hookups with countless men. 

​In response to your question, I think gay spouses in gay/straight marriages live in such deep denial that it feels like some alternate reality. This is your husband's current mindset I believe. He's lied to himself about his sexuality, his marriage, and now he continues to lie to himself that you will indeed follow a gay man across the country. It's delusional. My own experience was like an addiction, meaning that it got much worse over time. So the more I explored my true sexuality, that required even more lies, and greater denial. Why does your husband continue to delude himself? Because he's done it his whole life. He's become the lies. I hope that answered your questions. If not, please feel free to post again.   

Last edited by Séan (March 21, 2017 12:47 pm)

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March 22, 2017 6:22 am  #413


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing Stonehouse. That took a lot of courage. I'm very sorry that you've found yourself here. I've responded to your post below and have asked a number of follow up questions as well:

1. I'm trying to figure my next step. I've had a distant marriage for 20 years, after dating my husband long distance for 3. Over time, my husband maintained frequent hobbies and workouts (several times a week for many hours each) often out of town, or in ways that made it difficult for me or our young children to join. I complained endlessly, he refused to change. I viewed him as selfish, but I had no evidence of any infidelity. My time was dedicated to kids and family and work. Couples therapy for 1.5 years taught me to give up on expectations he would change.

Before looking at the gay thing (or "TGT" as members often refer to it), it sounds as though you've been struggling from the beginning. He's living more or less a bachelor's life and you've tried couples therapy during which you've been told to give up on what you want from your relationship. Question: how did your husband act during couples therapy?

2. Our sex was fine for 5 or 6 years. I was then devastated when he said he was attracted to a bag of bones actress on TV (I am not thin) and he replied 'There's more to love than physical attraction." I pressed him on what that meant, and he became fuming mad. I dropped it but never forgot.

Reading between the lines, it sounds as though you haven't had any real intimacy in 14-15 years. Is that correct?   

3. I had seen his computer history a few years ago with mw4mw, which I found upsetting, but I wasn't convinced he was GID. I played into stereotypes because he didn't present like my gay friends.

​I had to look up "mw4mw" online. I believe it means: "A couple consisting of a man & wife 'mw' seeking to have sex with another 'mw' couple." So your husband was searching for group sex.  

4. We grew further apart. I realized he was maintaining his credit and bank account online, so I had no access to see what was up.  Then a few weeks ago, I see his Internet history, and it's 20 or so porn links a day, almost every day, going back as far as the system would show. 75% is m4m, and they are Craigslist ads in the towns where he works and we live.

So he is hiding his financial history from you and you've been checking his internet history. Would it be fair to say that 75% of his searches are for group sex (with other male/female couples) and the remaining 25% of the searches are Craigslist ads for sex with other men? Please advise.

5. I confront him as gently as possible, he denies interest in men. He says he only looked because he is starved for intimacy because I'm so cold, looking at my phone, working overtime, etc. He says that's the truth and it's up to me to believe him, and he is not going back to therapy. I can't find any evidence of emails, texts, meetings -- all I have is this history and my intuition against his denials. Is this enough to launch into separation? We have two young kids.

Again I'm so sorry that you've found yourself in this situation. First I want to thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. That took a lot of courage and you're helping a lot of straight spouses by sharing your story. So I'd encourage you to continue posting here or on your own thread. Second, I'd recommend you take a week or perhaps a month to just focus on yourself and your needs. For example, I'd continue posting here daily for at least a month. This will help you move from focusing exclusively on your husband and his needs, to focusing more on your own needs. If he refuses to go to therapy, I'd suggest you start going alone. And finally, I'd encourage you to trust your intuition. This is what I've taken away from your post: 

1. You suspect your husband is gay.
​2. You've confronted him about being gay and he denied it.
​3. You don't believe him.
4. You've started searching through his web history to determine whether or not he's gay.
​5. His web history has Craigslist ads for men seeking sex with other men.
​6. You haven't had a normal sex life in almost 15 years.
​7. He doesn't include you nor your children in his own activities.
​8. He refuses to go to couples therapy.
​9. He keeps his financial details hidden.
​10. You are unhappy and are now considering divorce.         

Is that a fair assessment? Divorcing after 20+ years together is challenging in any relationship, particularly with children. But please keep in mind that people often divorce for many of the things you've described: lack of sex; lack of intimacy; infidelity; or simply because the spouses grow apart. Your story certainly seems to tick many of the gay-in-denial boxes, namely:

​1. A self-centred (and perhaps narcissistic) husband
​2. A sexless marriage.
​3. He's living like a bachelor and doesn't seem involved in the relationship.
4. Questionable web history (namely Craigslist).
​5. Suspicion of cheating.  
​6. Very defensive when you asked the question, "Are you gay?"

​In my short time as a member of this forum, I'd say the fact that you posted here is a very strong indicator that your husband is gay. But let's not make this all about him. I'd recommend you spend a month focused 100% on yourself. That means writing down what you want from a relationship, sharing here, getting support from the Straight Spouse Network or members here, and going to therapy alone.

I hope that helps in some way Stonehouse. Please keep posting.

Last edited by Séan (March 22, 2017 6:23 am)

     Thread Starter
 

March 22, 2017 6:46 am  #414


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Stonehouse,

So sorry.  Yes,  the distrust builds up when we catch pieces of betrayal, cheating, disloyalty etc..
Added to it then  is poor treatment of us  .either subtle over the years or sudden and shocking (I got both lucky me).

Looking back now I'm appalled at the excuses I made of the poor treatment...but I lovvvved her.   This is known clinically as "cognitive dissonance"  (oh he is home at 2am...he must have been shopping).   Other clinical words come to mind;  ..codependent (but one is supposed to have some dependency on their spouse or loved ones)... trauma bonding  aka insane loyalty.

Eventually the distrust eats you up and ,  if you're like me, you start physically shaking as the person you trusted most in the world is , in reality,  covertly (or blatantly) disloyal and betraying you.    That is no way to live..I could not do it..being physical distraught and if I snoop finding more horrifying crap.    One cannot live wondering what their spouse is up to...ie..  are they shopping or having sex?  Is he looking for a book online or surfing porn?    I don't think God would want or expect us to live like that... we're no good to our kids, our fellow man or ourselves in that in a condition and marriage like that.

Last edited by Rob (March 22, 2017 6:51 am)


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

March 23, 2017 5:14 am  #415


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for replying Stonehouse. I applaud you for sharing here and working to see things more clearly. I'd also like to thank JK and Rob for sharing as well. I agree with what they both wrote, particularly JK's last post.

​Stonehouse you wrote about cognitive dissonance which is a term I had to look up. I'm not a mental health expert although I do know a bit about narcissism and particularly gay-in-denial narcissism. Now that I've read about cognitive dissonance, I'd characterize it as, "Believing my gay-in-denial husband's bullsh*t." Let's start with the basics. Like many straight spouses, I believe you're looking at this from the standpoint of where you are now, rather than from the standpoint of what you need & deserve. As such, I'd recommend going back to basics. This means writing down your honest feelings. Let's call it a relationship constitution. So I'd suggest you take a piece of paper and finish the following sentence stems:

1. Love for me means....
2. Intimacy for me means....
3. Marriage for me means...
​4. Being a husband for me means...

​I agree with JK that being gay-in-denial should be considered a serious mental illness. It's also very toxic and harmful for the straight spouse. Why? Because straight spouses are trapped in their husband's closets and start living in a bizarre parallel universe. Looking at your situation Stonehouse, your gay-in-denial husband is making the same mistakes I made, namely:

1. Blaming others for his behaviour: He's not interested in sex with women because he's very likely gay and yet he's brainwashed you that this is your fault. Bullsh*t! Who cares if you're not thin Stonehouse? This isn't your fault nor should you feel guilty about it. You deserve a husband who loves you and desires you, curves and all.  

​2. Doing whatever he wants: ​A wife and children aren't hobbies, a stopover, nor a drive thru, they are a long-term commitment and responsibility. Yes you can justify that your husband is a good father, but being a good father and husband isn't just being there when it fits his schedule. It also means being present, honest, and emotionally available full-time...not just when it's convenient.

​3. Thinking his bullsh*t doesn't smell: The best test of whether you're in an equal relationship is to do exactly what your partner is doing for a month. Imagine his reaction if you were a part-time mom, had activities and holidays that forced him to be the primary caregiver, lived/worked away from home, and started looking for sex online "just for fun." He'd never accept it so why does he think you should? This alternate reality is common among gay/straight relationships. I think we gay husbands have lied to ourselves for so long that we start believing our lies. And when our wives suffer and start asking questions, we use anger to keep them in line. It's wrong. 

Stonehouse you sound like a very loving, kind, and honest person. I'd urge you to start by writing down your relationship constitution. This will ensure that you're looking at things from your perspective, rather than through your gay-in-denial husband's warped reality. It's tough going at first, but it appears you're breaking free of his web of lies, evasions, and justifications. Please keep posting, asking questions, and getting real-world help. You deserve love and happiness.

Last edited by Séan (March 23, 2017 5:15 am)

     Thread Starter
 

March 23, 2017 9:16 am  #416


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Stonehouse,

I truly don't mean to sound offensive, I have had the same experience as you have in one respect. When I married my husband I was a size 4 (leaning towards a 2), anyway after we married it seems like he did whatever he could to derail my healthy lifestyle.

I have always had health issues to start with, so I controlled them with diet, workouts and a minimum of medication. He would tell me how much he loved my self discipline, until we got married. Then he would complain that I could eat .....pick a sugary treat...just this once. It wouldn't hurt me to miss a workout...etc. etc. Up to and including that I must be trying to attract men I work with, until I finally quit. Then he began to complain that I let myself go and became a "big" girl and he was not interested anymore because of it.

Of course, this was followed by my discovery of the truth about him. Anyway, after looking around the internet, I began to wonder if this is just another way that gid (male or female) try and make us feel like everything is our fault, therefore they feel justified in lying and cheating because we "let" ourselves get out of shape or become boring or whatever the excuse they can find. What do you think? I know how much what he said hurt you, I have been there and I am sorry for your pain.


Go not quietly into that great, good night......Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
 

March 24, 2017 1:40 am  #417


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for sharing Stonehouse. Remember that every time you post here, you're helping dozens of straight spouses work through their own issues. So I'd encourage you to keep writing either here or by creating your own thread. 

In response to your latest post, I think you're on the right track. You mentioned being middle-aged which means you might remember the days when people used to smoke in bars and nightclubs. I'm not a smoker myself, but I remember dancing the night away in college. I'd wake up the next day after a bender and my clothes would absolutely reek of cigarette smoke. It was always strange because I couldn't remember the smoke bothering me the previous night. I'd shudder to think I'd spent and entire evening breathing in such toxic air. I think gay/straight marriages have a similar second-hand nature. While you and your children aren't actively taking part in your husband's lies, manipulations, and toxic behaviour, you're surrounded by it all day, every day. By coming here, you've cracked open a window on your hazy marriage and once you've breathed the clean air of truth, there is no going back. Yes it's scary, but it's also freeing.  

I've read a lot of messages by straight wives and firmly believe that once you've posted here, you're ready to accept reality. You're ready to accept that your husband is gay. Your body may have already started showing signs it knows the truth. Posting here and sharing your story is about the mind catching up. And how do our bodies show us something is wrong? We feel depressed, have trouble sleeping, or we feel disoriented. We search for answers on forums like this or with mental health professionals. Straight spouses want to believe their gay husbands because we all want our marriages to work. We want love, intimacy, and affection. Who wouldn't? Hell I tried to make my marriage work for 18 months after coming out to my (then) wife.

​The truth remains that a gay man simply can't provide a straight woman with what she needs. And most gay-in-denial husbands haven't provided their straight wives with much of anything for years, if not decades. Marriage isn't about lies, cheating, nor absence (whether emotional or physical). Sadly, when the persuasive lies no longer work, GID husbands often resort to outright mental or even physical abuse to keep their wives in line. I know because I've been there and I so regret the way I acted. It's cruel and it's a toxic environment for our children. 

​So what's my point? As many brave members have shared here, life can begin at 40, 50, 60 or even later. Sometimes we've lived in that dark smoky place for so long we wrongly think we're happy there. And we can even convince ourselves the second-hand smoke isn't killing us or our children. But it is. 

​Stonehouse I'd suggest you start your own thread on this site and commit to posting daily for at least 60 days. By posting here, you've cracked a window and every time you post here, a little more fresh air and truth will come in. There are wonderful, kind, and accepting people here who have lived through many of the things you've so bravely described. You'll find yourself sharing more details, gaining strength every day, and slowly accepting the truth (rather than his f*cked up version of it). So I'd encourage you to take a little time each day to post here. Look how far you've come in just a few days! Imagine who you'll be after a few months. I look forward to following your journey.

​Thanks again for sharing.   

Last edited by Séan (March 24, 2017 4:12 am)

     Thread Starter
 

March 24, 2017 3:30 am  #418


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Stonehouse: I felt the exact same way trying to fill in Sean's four sentences............I couldn't finish them. I took a photo of them to go back and see if endings come any easier to me over time. My marriage too was my first real relationship and after almost 30 years of marriage (mid 50s) I too find myself confused about what I need or want and to be honest have NO CLUE as to how to go about even trying to seek it out! I do know life won't come knocking on my door..............big step to open that door and go get a life (I do have friends that we meet up and keep in touch but I mean a LIFE apart from lunch or coffee dates)!


Sometimes we are just the collateral damage in someone else's war against themselves
 

March 25, 2017 2:20 am  #419


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Stonehouse Do pay HUGE attention to your gut feeling, you have very odd behaviours that are red flags, act on your intuition. I had one friend who asked me once or twice if my husband could be gay (I confided in her about his lack of sex drive and my feeling it didn't matter to him if I was there or not), I discounted this completely, not once did it ever even come back to me in the dead of night if I lay awake, I felt he was forthright, honourable and trustworthy (& tbh didn't think he'd even be bothered - if he couldn't show any interest in me why would he be interested in anybody else?!! LOL how naive of me! D'UH, in fact DOUBLE D'UH!). The withdrawal from me happened so subtly and "organically" that it didn't slap me round the face!

Like JK looking back there were red flags but I'd probably given up expecting anything from him long ago if I'm honest and never read the signs, my STBX started his double life back in 1991, we had two smallies at that stage and we had what I considered a healthy sex life and life in general, we even went on to have another child, moved country and settled into rearing three kids. I never had reason to doubt him & question, other than who's that texting, to which he'd reply one of his brothers, all matter of fact!

There's a huge part of you feels a right fool when the cold hard facts are laid out in front of you and you see the level of deceit, lack of respect that was engaged in - and on top of that they're the ones who feel sorry for themselves and see themselves as the real victim! For me the cherry on the icing on top of the cake is all his family believe his lies and his belittling of me, they see the gay issue as being just a small part of our problems! The day before he came out to them they'd all have said we were as solid as a rock - no doubts there! AMAZING how the tide changes!


Sometimes we are just the collateral damage in someone else's war against themselves
 

March 25, 2017 6:57 am  #420


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Stonehouse wrote:

FoolMe and Sean, thank you. Today is one of the many days I'm the one in denial. Just too tired to deal with this uphill battle. Worked all day, came home and suggested dinner out. Husband said "fine!" in a sacastic tone, daughter then said no thanks she'd stay home. When I then changed my mind and started cooking, husband changes his shirt, heads out the door saying "maybe I'll just go somewhere then!" Then, weirdly, comes back inside, fishes into his work bag for a hair brush (for his really short hair?), opens a kitchen drawer to grab some grey credit/travel card, and leaves for the next 3 hours. Leaving me to wonder what that is all about. The strange thing is I'm happier with him away, and the kids don't even ask where he is. When I have more energy soon Sean, I'll stop monopolizing your thread and start another. Thanks for your help and patience.

Thanks for sharing Stonehouse. You're making great progress. You're honestly sharing your feelings, now recognize that your husband's behaviour is f*cked up, and (most importantly) see that you're happier without him around. Keep going! As far as this thread, share here as much as you like or create your own thread. Whatever works for you Stonehouse. Just keep sharing. 


 

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