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December 6, 2018 6:48 pm  #1


Separation/divorce - Logistical

I originally wrote this all as one long post but it was sooo long I was afraid no one would read to the end. So here's part one: 

My wife came out as bisexual in August 2017. We thought we might be able to do the whole mixed orientation thing, but it turns out she just really wants to be with women, and I'm not down with the open marriage concept. So it looks like it's over. We (she) came to this conclusion a few weeks ago, after a 3-month trial separation that happened after I found out she was having an affair. Now I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.  

We can't afford our house plus another household, but we probably won't be ready to sell for at least another 6 months. We're picking up an extra bed this weekend, which I think will help, but staying in the house together will really make it difficult for me to decouple and move on. I'm still in love with her and am struggling with the thought of losing her and everything we've built together. Here are some questions I was hoping some of you might be able to help me figure out: 

1. Should we consider staying apart?
During our separation we kept the kids in the house and took turns staying with friends. That’s an option, but the back-and-forth got old real fast...thinking through clothes, food, and other logistics. I do see the appeal of having space—physically, mentally, and emotionally. But maybe it's just easier staying in the house and I just need to accept that we aren't really moving on until we sell the house.  

2. If we stay in the house (which I'm leaning toward), should we see other people?
I can't decide. Part of me thinks that will help me move on (me seeing other people), but part of me isn't sure if I'll be able to handle her seeing other people. 

3. Should we separate or divorce?
Is there a benefit to staying legally married (health insurance, etc.) but separating on paper (custody, property, finances, etc.)? Obviously, if/when one of us wants to remarry we'd have to finalize the divorce but wondering if there's a strong case either way. There's maybe a teeny tiny part of me that doesn't want to completely shut that door in case she changes her mind, but I'm 99% sure we're past that point. She's just not that into me anymore and I deserve someone who is.  

4. Can we do this without lawyers?
I think we can but we might need to hire a mediator. Phoenix, if you're reading this I found your post on amicable divorce EXTREMELY helpful. Thank you for that. Others who have experience here, please chime in. Any advice or good resources to help me figure out how to even begin divvying up finances? 

5. What do we tell the kids?
Our daughters are 8 and 6. When we separated we told them that we needed a time out from each other. They were devastated for about 15 minutes and then went back to playing. The separation was tough on them at times. I think they deserve to know the truth but my wife has balked at that idea before. I'm just not sure if/what they'll really understand at their ages.  

Thank you all for being here and taking the time to share your stories. 

Last edited by DaveRG (December 6, 2018 6:49 pm)

 

December 6, 2018 7:26 pm  #2


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Dave,
    Law issues:
    In my state, using a mediator does not replace hiring an attorney.  Even if you go through mediation, you have to hire a lawyer to write up the agreement.  In some states, if there are children, mediation is mandated (in addition to having a lawyer). 
     My ex and I wanted to divorce amicably, so we agreed to hire only one lawyer, who would handle the divorce. I hired the lawyer.  There is some risk here, because the lawyer works for and watches out for the interests of whoever hires the lawyer.  With children, if you disagree on custody, this option would be a mistake.  We did not have minor children, and my ex and I worked out most of the property settlement between us, and we both did some compromising: I insisted on once small concession from him when I knew the law backed me up (I could have asked for more), and I was willing to sell him my share or our house for less than it was worth.  If I were in your shoes, and you opt for one lawyer, I'd insist that I be the one to hire the lawyer.  My spouse's ideas about what was equitable were not consistent with the law, as it turns out, and I was entitled by law to more than my spouse though was equitable.  It's important for you to know what the law considers marital property and what not.  
    As for separation vs. divorce, in my state separation comes with financial obligations (you're liable for some expenses and debts your spouse might incur), so you need to research this.  It might not be wise.  I'd take all that you learn from your research, formulate some questions for a lawyer, and go have a consultation.  

    All I can say about staying in the same house is that my mental health and outlook improved immensely when I got into my own place.  I certainly can't imagine living in the same house and having my spouse bringing a date home!  

 

December 6, 2018 7:27 pm  #3


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Hi Dave.  
Welcome to our forum.  As you will hear many times..  I'm so sorry you have to be here.  
But, since you are here, I hope we can be very helpful and supportive and make your journey easier. 

First..  it's not your fault!!!     I'll tell you that in both this thread and the other one because it's really important.  You are not perfect... none of are (though I am pretty close..  eye-roll).   But you didn't do anything to deserve what is happening.  You clearly cannot control what body parts you were born with and you cannot control what body parts your wife is attracted to.  You didn't cause this, you don't deserve this, and it is NOT your fault.  In fact, you should be proud of how you've stuck with her and tried to work on your marriage since she came out to you.  

I hope you get lots of advice from others.. We have a great group with a very diverse set of perspectives and experience.  I'll share mine and you can take whatever value you can get from any of it. 

1.)  We often say that you don't really start to heal until you've separated and no longer have to see your spouse on a regular, daily basis.  However, for most it's not possible to accomplish this until you are divorced.  The staying with friends idea is a good one, but I would caution you about legal issues that might stem from this.  In many nasty divorces one partner agrees to leave to keep the peace, but then the other claims they have abandoned the home and family and then uses that against them (effectively) in the legal process.  You run a risk of losing some ground in custody of the kids, etc..  
Even though it's hell for you, your kids might value having both parents together for the last period before you split permanently.   There is no easy answer.. but I want you to understand a potential pitfall. 

2.)  You can do what makes you feel best regarding seeing other people.  However I will tell you that I don't recommend you do this yet.  It might make you feel good (and desired), but that is just a short-term band-aid that could harm your recovery.  Most people are not emotionally healthy and ready for a relationship for a while.  It's not really fair to the other person you might date.  You mentioned seeing her with others being hurtful... it definitely was for me.  My advice is to put that off for a while.  Work on getting through this, healing yourself emotionally, gathering some strength before you start to date.  You might think you are ready, but you'll probably find out later you weren't. 

3.)  You absolutely deserve someone who is into you completely. You'll find that person..   You are right about how remaining married can be helpful financially.  But it could also be risky.  She cheated on you, which is basically the ultimate betrayal.  Do you completely trust her?  Do you think she's going to make decisions that benefit you and your future or just her own?  Do you want to be 50% responsible for credit card debts that she could run up without your permission?  What if she spent the money on a girlfriend?  

it's hard to wrap your head around this, but you have to change your assumptions of how she will treat you.  While you were married you made decisions that were in both of your best interest and you cared about what the other person thought about it because you were maintaining a permanent relationship.  That doesn't apply anymore.  She made the decision to find a someone else to spend her future with so her loyalty will be to that person and not to you.  Start thinking of her as your "soon to be ex" and make decisions under that assumption.   When someone shows you their true self through their actions - believe them. 

4.)  Hard to say if you can do this without lawyers.  I would make the attempt, because if you can convince her to play nice you will both save a lot of money.  But - be prepared and have a back up plan in case it doesn't work.  Go visit some attorney's for initial consultations.  Google everything you can find for your state laws on divorce.   When you've got a decent education, sit down with her at the kitchen table and see how much you can agree on right now.  Then you can decide if you think you can do it without attorneys.  Don't be shy in telling her that it'll cost many thousands of dollars each and more time otherwise.  
This is all assuming you don't have millions of dollars to split or very complicated estates, etc..  Please don't think that I am saying attorney's are bad.  I just think that if two people can work it out themselves (with a mediator to help) it's for everyone best.   The mediator is a great idea to help you finalize any last issues and to help you consider things you haven't though of yet.  

5.)  Tell the kids it's not their fault..  tell them this often.  Explain it over and over until they get sick of it.  
Tell them both mommy and daddy still love them both just as much as ever.  What is happening between you doesn't change your relationship with each of them at all.  Tell them everything you can that will remove fear from their lives.   They get to stay in the same house, or spend some time at mommy's new house.  They keep their school and friends and toys and clothes.    
Honestly at that age, kids are selfish.  It's just natural.  They are worried about what will happen to them. So the more you can re-enforce this the better.   
Don't use them against each other. 
You can tell them a watered-down version of the truth.  I did.  I told my kids that I still loved their mom, but she fell in love with another woman and wants to move away from me.   
Younger is better..  they will be just fine.  

If you haven't yet, check out the first-aid kit thread.   You might find some good stuff in there to help yourself start to heal and get through this thing.  

 


-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 

 
 

December 6, 2018 8:17 pm  #4


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Staying apart or co-habitation - always a tough question. I understand why you wouldn't want to impose on friends and live out of a suitcase part-time. As for sharing the house, I don't think you could do that without ground rules about being out and about, coming home or not, bringing people over or not. It is good as you still get lots of time with the kids but you also don't want to become the de-facto babysitter while she's out 'exploring'. Maybe it would work if there's a projected time line attached to it with certain goals, such as renovations to sell at a high market value. I was in this situation for about six months and that was more than long enough. I think mutual respect requires both parties to keep their fun and games away from the shared residence and also away from the eyes of the kids. Model the behaviour you would want them to adopt.

Regarding separation, in my area it's necessary for a year before divorce unless it's due to drastic circumstances like abuse. You can still be in the same house while separated as long as you no longer act as a couple, e.g. share rides to work, shared mealtimes, vacations, etc. with obvious exceptions for child-centered events. The rules vary so a little research is well advised.


“The future is unwritten.”
― Joe Strummer
 

December 6, 2018 8:56 pm  #5


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

I forgot to say that our divorce cost us less than $1,500.00.  We paid that out of joint funds.  So even with a lawyer it doesn't have to be wildly expensive.  We could probably have done it for less if we'd done it ourselves, but I would have come out of the divorce with less, because the lawyer helped clarify how the law defines marital property, and I could take that to my (now)ex and talk to him about that.

 

December 6, 2018 11:13 pm  #6


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Regarding staying in the house..... many people on another board I am on do an "in house separation." Basically, one spouse moves into another room, and they each try to lead their own lives. It is hard, but quite a few seem to make it work.

And regarding separating or staying married and using attorneys vs doing it yourselves..... this is when you really need to do some research on the laws in your particular state. Where I live, there is no such thing as a legal separation, so until either party files for divorce, all assets are marital - even if you are living separate lives, and that means either party can spend/withdraw any amount of money and there really isn't anything the other person can do about it. Once you file, though, that changes and each party needs to justify any major expenditures. Also, in my state, if minor children are involved, parents MUST take a parenting class and also go before a judge to have the annulment finalized. If there are no minor children, judge can sign off on the agreement without the parties having to go to court.

Each state is different though, so that is something you need to look into.

 

 

December 7, 2018 12:39 pm  #7


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

< deleted >

Last edited by Estella Oculus (May 1, 2019 10:17 am)

 

December 7, 2018 4:24 pm  #8


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Hi Dave,

I'm in the process of divorce mediation.  In my case, I'm not convinced it was the best choice, but since I can back out any time I want ... I'm giving it a chance in good faith.  Look at it this way: if you're in a courtroom, the person you have to convince with your arguments is the judge.  In mediation, the person you're negotiating with is your spouse.  If your spouse is delusional or dishonest (or some combination of the two), that means it may be difficult to mediate successfully.  But, if your spouse is basically an honest person, and you're not worried about hidden assets, gambling debts, etc., mediation is fine.

Your question 3: when I started this process, I thought maybe I could manage with just a separation.  I think this is a common response for a lot of people, when you're just not emotionally prepared to truly end the marriage.  My lawyer advised me that most people, once they go through the process of determining support obligations and division of property, end up deciding just to divorce and get it over with.  Having gotten this far into the process, I see the wisdom of this, but each marriage is different.

Your question 5: It's hard to look at kids that age and imagine dumping this bombshell on them, and I think this is a case where you should really consult with a specialist.  But I will say this much: I didn't learn my husband's secret until my daughter was 22, and eventually I'd learned so much that it became obvious to me that I had to end the marriage.  By then his lying and deceit had bled out into every area of our marriage, and had also bled into my husband's dealings with our daughter.  It was necessary for me to explain it to her, in order to put her father's irrational behavior towards her in context.  At that age, it's almost harder than your kids' ages, because there are two bombshells to deal with: the fact that her father is gay, and the fact that he's been lying to her all her life.  At your kids' ages, you can avoid the second bombshell (and I think that one is far more destructive than the first).  They can still have an honest childhood to look back on some day; they'll be able to look at their family photo albums and home movies without feeling it was all a fraud.  It's very, very harsh on adult children in our families -- ask anyone here, practically everyone reports that their adult kids have been in therapy for years.

Because my daughter was in her senior year in college when I made the discovery, I opted not to tell her right away, but instead decided to hold off until after graduation, and then tell her about three weeks later.  This way I could control the timing and messaging.  My worst nightmare was that she might stumble across the truth by accident, at a time and in a way I couldn't control the messaging.

Last edited by walkbymyself (December 7, 2018 4:25 pm)

 

December 7, 2018 7:29 pm  #9


Re: Separation/divorce - Logistical

Dave, I went through an extremely similar situation.  We are now divorced, but from the start to finish it took about a year.  We had an amicable divorce and figured most things out on our own. 

1 & 2) We also could not afford two houses, and she did not have a job so it took a while before she could move out.  I found this to be very difficult, because the day to day often seemed very normal. I felt like things were going to be OK and work out, just to be reminded again and again that they would not.  Even though she promised not to see other people while we lived together, she had a hard time fulfilling that promise, and I found myself jealous and angry.  Her moving out was the best thing that helped me move on. 

3) From my understanding, at least in my state, separation and divorce have pretty much the same rules and the process is similar.  I opted for Divorce because I did not want to go through this again. 

4)  We had an amicable divorce. We did all of the research up front, agreed to the child support (there is a calculator for our state) and alimony, and separation of assets.  I then hired an attorney to review everything, write up the papers, and give us instructions on what to do.  I was the plaintiff and represented myself in court.  This saved us a ton of money, doing as much of the leg work as possible.  We were able to do everything for about $2k with the attorney.  In our court, the Judge was very good.  They must do a lot of divorces as they provided a script for me to fill out and read to the Judge.  

5) Our kids were 12 and 10 when we told them we were getting divorced.  We just told them the truth, that their Mom was gay.  We didn't fight, and things seemed normal most of the time, so we wanted them to know the reason so they wouldn't blame themselves.  One was devastated for a while and it broke my heart and the other one was perfectly fine.  They are both great now.

 

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