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Mon Jul 3 7:33 pm  #11


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Yes, Abby I do know the Madoff story and while an extreme instance I know that something like that could be at play.  It could even be in addition to the other things I am worried about.  I still think there is more to than just financial.  I just feel that way.  What is also concerning to me is that when I tell this story to others (when I do I am not saying outright that I think he is gay, but including the lack of sex part, etc) I'm not getting many of my friends or therapists to go there.  I keep thinking if I tell all these facts about no sex, secrets, etc that they will think this is a possibility, but only two people have even kind of gone there.  Today I told my therapist all of this (including my suspicion that he is gay) .  And she didn't really react.  She asked some questions, but I felt like she wasn't ready to really consider that.  I think that is why I'm still questioning my gut on this.  Why doesn't anyone else think this is a real possibility?  

 

Mon Jul 3 10:55 pm  #12


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Josie,
I believe your husband could give his permission for the rehab place to speak with you.  I'm not sure, but I think that if he signs a permission, you could see his records.  If I had nothing to hide & wanted support, I would think I would allow my spouse to see such important records.  Might be something to look into.  I'm sorry this is so confusing and unclear, right now.  I hope that something starts to make sense to you.

 

Tue Jul 4 12:58 pm  #13


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Jkpeace, one of my friends said that.  She said normally when you go to the doctor they ask who they can release info to and usually one says their spouse.  If he's not hiding anything I should be able to get info.  I haven't tried calling them though.  I only ever talked to two people there and one was very stand offish and made me feel kind of stupid for asking questions.  The other called and had my husband on the phone with us and let me ask questions, but said due to confidentiality of the patient we could never speak without him present.  I don't know if this is standard or if this was something my husband specifically requested.  I don't know why, but I feel funny calling them.  I think I am worried he would find out that I am trying to find info and get upset with me.  

     Thread Starter
 

Tue Jul 18 10:22 am  #14


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

HI Josie,

Your story sounds a bit like mine.  Lack of sex - never was really there.  Perfunctory, passionless sex.  Other issues in the marriage, but none that would seem to affect the sex.  We tried counseling.  It didn't work.  The reason that people say that the sex part can be fixed is because most often the sex is suffering because something is off in the relationship.  When that's not the case, it can't be fixed.  Our therapist got to the point where he said, "I've taken you as far as I can with your relationship.  I think your sex issue has nothing to do with the relationship."  BOOM.  What he didn't say - and something that was uber important to me - was that the bottom line was that my husband didn't feel passion for me.  He didn't hunger for me.  He wasn't chasing me in any way.  He wasn't compelled by anything I did.  It's not the sex part that put the rod through my heart so much as what it meant.  And I could NOT go on being married to someone who felt complacent about me.  I just wouldn't do it.  For what?  So I could get to the 50-year mark and put a notice in the paper saying we'd arrived at the golden anniversary?  No one gives you a prize for that.

Yes, if your husband is clinically depressed and was delusional, he should be on medication.  Now,.... it could be that he refused said medication.  But trust me - it's not that they wouldn't recommend that medication if that was the issue.  So either he's refusing to get better, or he's lying about what was wrong.  I'm betting on the latter.  Delusions don't go away with just counseling.  It's a chemical thing.  They'd have to put him on anti psychotic meds, and even then it'd likely only put a dent in the issue.  I know this from having a mentally ill son.

It sounds to me as though when he said that he's afraid that his friends have seen a video of him online jerking off that what he really means is that there IS a video online of him - doing something nefarious - (maybe gay sex?).  But how's he going to tell you that?  He's going to have to allude to something, and then when he says what he's doing in said video, he has to come up with something that's not good, but as far on the good side as it can be.  Masturbation would be such a thing.  He's just trying to give you the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

It all sounds very confusing and challenging for you.  I'm sure you're feeling overwhelmed.  One of the things that is the worst about being married to someone with a mental illness (if that is in fact what he has) is that we see it as a sickness - and wouldn't we be awful for leaving a sick spouse?  However, if they are choosing to remain sick and won't take the meds necessary to restore some balance, then they are CHOOSING to remain ill.  As if it only affect them.  You have every right at that point to decide that you are not up for being in a confusing, abusive relationship because they don't want to get a handle on their illness.  If he wants to prove to you that he's fine and has nothing to hide, then call the damned place he stayed together - so they can confirm his diagnosis, treatment, etc.  If he won't do that, then he's hiding something from you.  You have every right to know where the crazy mess in your house started, and how it's being addressed.  If you can't be part of that process, then you can choose to not be part of the process, too.

Kel
 


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

Thu Jul 20 7:40 am  #15


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Thank you so much Kel for your response. All of that is very helpful and gives me more to think about. We have our couples counciling today and I'm hoping we can start to break through some of this. I'm tired of living in fear and anticipation of what is happening with him and our marriage. There are days I just want to walk away, but my personal therapist thinks I should go to at least 12 sessions with the couples therapist before I make a decision.

     Thread Starter
 

Thu Jul 20 10:00 am  #16


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

All I can say to that is that 1) going that many session will probably reveal SOMEthing to you - will either make you feel more like this is savable, or more convinced that it's not.  And 2) You don't owe it to your therapist to do what SHE thinks is best for YOUR life.  It's your decision.  If you feel like you want to end the madness because it's just prolonging the pain of something inevitable, then that's what you should feel free to do.  A marriage therapist is always going to be driven to save the marriage, even when that's clearly not the best route.  Can't blame them, I guess.

I went to counseling with my ex before we finally threw in the towel, too.  I was done, honestly.  I only went to counseling so that he could have the time to digest that this was really over.  We'd gone to counseling several times before, and this time was really no different.  I was NOT honest with him in that when the counselor asked me what I was willing to do to save the marriage, I said, "ANYthing".  That wasn't true at all.  But for some reason, I felt it's what I had to say at that point.  I was worried that I would need to actually DO all the things I had said I'd be okay with, when I knew I had no intention of doing them (whatever they may be).  But it turns out that very little was asked of us.  I did those things, and my ex did NOT - despite HIM being the one who wanted to save the marriage.  I could hardly believe it.  We were asked to do one nice thing for the other person during the week, not mentioning it them at the time.  Then the next week in counseling, the therapist asked us what that thing was.  I always had things.  Even though I was done with the relationship, I still felt compelled to do nice things for others.  It's just who I am.  I thought that's who he was, too.  So when the time came to say what we'd done, I usually listed off a few, and my ex would sit there and say he forgot.  It shocked the hell out of me - I mean, he'd DONE things (like doing the dishes, making coffee), and he could have just claimed one of those things.  SO.EASY!  But he didn't.  Which means that none of those were done for me!  Which was eye-opening.  So the counselor gave us the same assignment the next week.  Same.exact.scenario.  So the third week, the counselor said, "Okay (xh), I want you to tell Kel three complimentary things."  And he sat there, unable to do it.  Now..... how is that even possible?  I could make up three nice things to say about a freaking stranger, ya know?  So then the counselor asked for ONE thing.  NOTHING.  It was crystal-clear at that point that it was crazy to want to stay married to someone when you cannot even think of ONE GOOD THING to say about them.  That was the day that counselor told us that he had taken us as he could as a couple - our issues with sex didn't stem from our relationship.  He wanted to see my ex alone.  And they did that for a good two months.  And that's where my ex either came to the realization or the acceptance that he was gay.  If it weren't for that ONE SESSION where that all happened, I'm not sure he'd have gotten to the realization that it was over.  I can't say for sure that it was as obvious to him in that session as it was to me that he didn't really love me.  But it can't have gone unnoticed.

Good luck to you.  Just keep doing what feel like the best thing for YOU, and you'll get to where you need to go.

Kel

Last edited by Kel (Thu Jul 20 10:03 am)


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

Fri Jul 21 4:00 pm  #17


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

We went to the therapy session yesterday and I too feel "done", but am not being honest about that.  Part of my issue is not having the strength to tell him.  I feel fearful about it and I am not exactly sure why.  I think it might be his reaction because he can get really angry, but I also think I want to be a little more sure (not sure about gay or not necessarily but sure that I really want to end it).  I feel like if we do work to move toward working it out I will feel like I did everything I could to try to work it out.  Yesterday my husband started the conversation with the therapist with wanting to get past me thinking there was a secret.  He looked right at me and said he's never done anything at all inappropriate, etc.  For some reason him bringing it up made it worse for me.  It was like he was showing me he had nothing to hide by bringing it up, but really it felt a little like a show.  We were talking about two different things.  One that he had felt really stressed at work which lead to him thinking they were setting him up and that's why he thought our house was bugged and his phone.  But he also told me, our oldest daughter and a few of our friends that there was a secret and things were going to come out.  This always has felt separate to me.  This seemed less like a worry that something was happening and more like he knew of something that was definitely out there and was preparing us for it.  Now it could still be financial, but then we started talking about the fact that he is afraid there is a video out there of him masterbating.  I have felt from the beginning that this was a cover for something else.  We talked a lot about it yesterday and he was first trying to say that the "secret" and the fear of being set up were the same thing, but it felt like it was going round and round and not adding up.  Then when we talked about the video he said that he has always felt off in social situations like people are talking about him behind his back.  The whole thing screamed to me that he knows something is off, but either won't or can't or doesn't even know what it is so he can't say it out loud.  At the end of the session the therapist (who knows the whole story because I told her when I met with her by myself) suggested that we come separately next time.  I suggested that he come first!  I want to see what she gets out of him.  I don't really know what the therapist was thinking about all this, but she did ask some really good questions and at the end I think she gave me a knowing look or a look of sympathy or something.  I felt better afterwards, like maybe I might start to get some answers.  

     Thread Starter
 

Tue Jul 25 11:12 am  #18


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Josie,

The crying while talking to this man sounds very..... off.  Even if it were something like a financial fraud case, I can't think that would produce crying - more likely sweating.  The crying means something.  Men don't cry easily.  There's some emotional thing going on between him and this man - I'm almost sure of it.  And yes, if that's the case, it makes sense that this man would be the one to escort him away to treatment.  Private companies work very differently than large corporations.  But in general, a company doing things professionally would not do such a thing - they would provide a helpline service for mental health and personal crisis.  But they step out of the process after that - they do not want the liability of having gotten implicated in something that can come back to haunt them.  They don't want to choose the treatment facility and then later find out that it wasn't a good match and be sued by a distrought widow or something.  They want to be able to say "we provided an avenue to help", and that's IT.  If they felt like he was disturbed enough to where he couldn't adequately perform his job, they would have insisted he take a leave, or they would have fired him (likely the former because the latter would be firing an ill person).  Choosing a treatment facility and flying him out there is NOT the place of an employer, and it's off that they'd do that.

There had to be SOME diagnosis at the treatment facility.  Bipolar doesn't typically involve paranoia - that's more like Schizophrenia or Borderline Personality Disorder.  Illegal drugs can also cause paranoia.  If he's not telling you what they diagnosed him with at his treatment facility, you need to keep asking.  Something's there.  This doesn't happen on its own and just.... go away.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

Tue Jul 25 11:25 pm  #19


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

Thank you Kel.  Your post really made me do some serious thinking.  You are so right.  The crying has bothered me, but I thought maybe it could be financial.  My husband NEVER cries.  His father passed away and I did not see him cry.  So crying for him is a big deal.  The company he works for is small in that you would never have heard of it, but big enough that they have stock that trades publicly so it is a corporation.  A fairly decent sized one that if I mentioned it in the city I live in most people have heard of it.  One of my friends said that right away when I said the company was so involved.  She has worked for 3 large corporations and said no way something like this would be handled this way in a corporation.  There are so many red flags but no proof at all.  I've never even found anything on his computer!  However, I actually feel better that I might be able to get some answers soon or even if I don't get anything concrete, I know that something is seriously off here.  I've been told time and time again to trust my gut.  I really need to heed this advice right now.  I'm right now really looking forward to my time with our therapist on Thursday.  I'm interested in her take on what we talked about last time.  

     Thread Starter
 

Yesterday 10:32 am  #20


Re: Really Starting to Wonder.....

When you're ramping up for counseling, and in there on Thursday, I want you to concentrate on one thing.  Stay clear of trying to tie the feelings to "proof".  Instead, state your feelings as they are experienced in your marriage.  Let me give you an example.

Don't say:
- I feel like there's a secret
- I feel like you might be gay
- I feel like you're lying to me
- I feel like you don't desire me

All of these statements can be met with: "There's no secret", "I'm not gay", "I'm not lying to you", and "I DO desire you".

Instead, state how you feel:
- I'm unhappy on a daily basis.
- The lack of a solid diagnosis or treatment plan for your recent paranoia and anxiety leaves me scared that it can easily return without warning.
- Your behavior scares me, and makes me want to seek a place away from you for the sake of my safety and mental stability (and that of our children).
- Our marriage is not a good example for our children of what they should expect some day for their own relationships.
- I feel less important than you in this relationship.
- You exhibit odd behavior that leaves me feeling lied to, deceived and unimportant
- I feel undesired and ugly

He cannot refute ANY of these feelings.  He cannot tell you that the behavior you consider odd is not considered odd by you (like crying on the phone with your boss).  He cannot tell you that you don't feel lied to and less important than him.  He cannot tell you that are not unhappy.  He cannot tell you that you're not scared and confused.  He cannot tell you that you feel undesired and rejected.  ALL of those are valid feelings.  NONE of those can be refuted.

If you are at a marriage counselor's and you tell your spouse in front of them that you don't feel loved, they cannot just scream "But I DO love you!" at you and have those feelings go away.  You could tell them what they're doing to make you not feel loved.  Or tell them what they're NOT doing that would make you feel loved.  Then they'd know what you wanted changed in order to feel loved.  If someone loves you and is of a solid mind, they should have compassion for you feeling so crappy and want to make you feel better.  It does NOT mean that they are capable or desiring of making those changes.  But you not feeling loved in a marriage would be a serious thing - no matter if it's reasonable or not for you to feel that way.

Try to share your feelings without trying to diagnose.  I myself tend to try to get to the root of any problem so that I can see if it can be fixed, and what options I have, and what direction to move in.  That's reasonable.  But in counseling, you don't need to try to figure it all out.  You just need to vent and make them aware (in a safe place, where they can't walk out or go crazy on you) that you feel unloved, unhappy, confused, discarded, unimportant, deceived, scared, sad and undesired.  You do NOT need to say, "And I think it's because you're gay".  Because then suddenly, alll the focus is on the gay thing, and refuting that.  If you just put your feelings out there, and let them hang in the air, and give some examples (if asked) of behaviors for why you feel that way, that has power.  It'll show you if your spouse CARES that you feel that way, and whether they're jumping at the chance to help you NOT feel so awful.  If all they do is defend or counter-attack, you know that you'll never get to where you need to be in order to feel happy - whether they're gay or not.

Spend some time today and tomorrow before counseling writing out how you feel.  Everything that you feel needs to be addressed.  Don't worry about overwhelming him.  He needs to see just how LARGE the scope of your bad feelings are.  Otherwise all he hears is individual complaints.  He needs to feel the weight of how his behaviors have affected you.  Don't hold back.  You don't have to shout it all.  But you have to be fearless to speak your truth.  Without that, there is no way to move forward.

Good luck.  Give us an update.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

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