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Wed Sep 28 4:32 am  #21


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Hi again, I want to say thanks, again. I feel so thrilled to hear your opinions and thoughts, sometimes sad, aware these experiences has come along with a lot of personal "cost". Your experiences move me. And I am so sorry for what you have experienced; lies and betrayal. I highly respect that, and appreciate that you share your stories. 

My personal concerns seems "light" compared to many of your stories. Still, I feel I have so many questions. I guess anyone else than my spouse cannot fully answer them, and many questions seem too small and insignificant to bring into the equation. But,  even if my situation is still "unclear", and I really dont know if this is real, it feels overwhelming. 

And I really value your thoughts and responses, and personally I think even the smallest of details may matter. To me it feels as it is in the details a possible key to more understanding and certainty may appear first, as I expect my spouse to be working hard to keep appearances. 

What is confusing, is that I feel I have a normal wife. At least, in everyday life these days, she is like any other wife. I even try to make myself think so. When I first began to think these thoughts, I think my "gaydar" woke, and tried to see things "clear". Not so easy when we have spent so many years together (now almost 20 years…).  I started noticing so much, and with time, I have begun thinking back, are there clues I missed, everything from her trips abroad with female friends, to her love for Melissa Etheridge and Tori Amos, as well as other clues of stigmatizing character… 

Like when it comes to her commenting bodies etc. (Kel) This is usually done in a very modest and respectful manner; it is not that we openly comment on people we see.I it so "commonly" done, it could be nothing.
She knows all the names of beautiful celebrities etc. and from time to time she comments, maybe about a change in their looks etc. I have then tried to have her comment someone, to see if she reacts to me saying such, like wow, check her out (celebrity on TV), has she increased their size maybe? (breasts). I think she enjoys this, and she usually knows the answer. And she does not question my remark. I find this harmless, but agree with you Kel.
The thing about it with my wife, is that she seems so "into it", so focused, and not as gossip. More like a kid knowing all about Porsches and Ferraris, if you understand.. 

Her phone is also a very subtle thing. She does not bring it to the bathroom, or bring it when she leaves the room. But she is vary of her code, similar with the imac, and her work PC.  
And given my suspicions earlier, she does not seem to ease on this. But there should not be a reason for secrecy either…I snooped before. She noticed. I found nothing, but I found threads where she had deleted messages. I either saw it out of the communication, or I noticed because I knew from her lock screen notifications she had received messages, but later they were gone. Still, she can also be like deleting mails continously, or messages, just because they are read. And all such incidents are not a basis for discussion, where she easily can dismiss with practical reasons for her behaviour. So I guess I have given up on the phone.

In general I think she is capable of covering her tracks well. And I see it highly likely that she choose her "moments" well, as I  think of her being used to have thick armour on her desires. I feel I can relate to your situation lostdad, us as a couple, earlier. At the time I could not relate variations to certain situations etc. What I knew back then, is that when we finally had a moment to ourselves, sex and cuddling with me was not her priority. And I know she did not enjoy sex much. 

Later, I introduced her to toys and movies etc, she responded very positive, but I also think this was the first penetration of that armour.  I agree; The more I learn the more it answers those nagging question 
My thoughts now is "learn" how to find another weak spot in that armour. I feel strongly, if I would leave her now, it would be based on suspicions only, with a risk of being wrong.  

Talking has taken us "nowhere". Meeting with both therapist (couple counselling), and later a sex therapist regaring this very topic, led us "nowhere". I see counselling/therapy in general as positive. But the insight gained by my wife seemed very superficial to me. So, I feel I learned she does not know herself as well as I thought. I was surprised she wanted to come along to the sex therapist to discuss my thoughts on her as lesbian or bisexual, but the therapist was only critical towards me and my "accusations", since my wife said, no she was not either.... At least, that was how I felt it. 

I feel the things I describe every day now. Like how her voice change when she talks about the women around us that I suspect are lesbian/bisexual. How she are very careful about critisizing the same women.How she may have started a pattern for home office days. How her dresscode and choice of colours seem to get less feminine every year. How I feel she prefers women so very much. 

ynedin, no problem sharing your thoughts in this thread, and you are very welcome if it is up to me.I am sorry about someone treating you like this.

Sorry if my writing and thoughts are blurry, as maybe my english, this is not my native arena, if you understand.

 

Wed Sep 28 6:08 am  #22


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Steen
My lezex in her narcissistic arrogance was very lax on security.  But then she was often texting during dinner, in bed, in the bathroom.  Thousands of texts a day from her girlfriend..the girlfriend was for all intensive purposes in our house.  She couldn't last 50 seconds without texting her lover. 
How did I allow this?  She wouldn't stop and chose this over me..all caring or respect for me was gone. A 5 year old could figure out what they were texting..
Keep looking for cracks but you may grow weary of it.. its not what we signed up for.  I think eventually she'll get sloppy or emboldened so that there can be no question what is going on.  Doesn't sound like she cares.


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

Wed Sep 28 7:13 am  #23


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Hi Rob,
Funny thing, my wife is usually quite mixed regarding privacy.  That is, with me she (pretends) to be very discrete, and I know she is very much concerned about appearances, this goes well with her upbringing.
She can also be relaxed about stuff, and some of an exhibitionist.
She can leave her private stuff easily accessible (everything from letters from her bank, doctor, underwear to dildos, easily to find and in a mess).
I often sense, she can like to be seen exposed nude, like walking through our house before night, turning off lights in the nude.
Point is, I would expect my wife to fall into a sloppy pattern, like you say. I just think she has not found that special friend worth risking it all just yet.
You say you accepted this happening, or is it just a way of saying you did not notice however obvious it was, in retrospect..? Cant blame you for wanting it not to be real, right..?

     Thread Starter
 

Wed Sep 28 12:12 pm  #24


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Steen.  I think you are correct in how you are approaching this.  I agree that it would be unfair for you to accuse her of being a lesbian and use that as your basis for asking for a divorce if you don't have confirmation of this. 

However, that doesn't mean you don't have grounds for discussing divorce.  Whether she is gay or not, the fact is there is no intimacy in your relationship.  Clearly you are struggling with trust.  These are big deals regardless of her sexual orientation.  So you might never get a clear answer to her sexuality because she may never admit it to the world or even to you.   But, that doesn't mean that you have to remain in a bad marriage either.   I never advocate in favor of divorce, but I think you owe it to yourself to really evaluate your life and decide if this situation is right for you. 

One additional comment.  Cameron (as a gay man) gives some really good insight into the progression of people coming out of the closet.  He says that most closeted gay people will remain in the closet until they find "Mr Right" or "Ms Right" and then will be so captivated by that person that it will be the prompting they need to finally make that jump.  Imagine how that will feel when your wife find "Ms. Right" and not only ends your marriage, but also betrays you.  I can tell you first hand that those are two separate knives in your back and both hurt, but the adultery and betrayal leaves a much bigger scar that takes much longer to heal. 

 

Last edited by lostdad (Wed Sep 28 12:13 pm)


-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 

"Horribly, the only way through it..... is through it."
-CajunBelle
 

Wed Sep 28 1:20 pm  #25


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

I agree with lostdad; whether she's cheating or not, it doesn't excuse the lack of intimacy, and no explanation is going to make your needs go away.

My current husband divorced his first wife over this very issue.  He to this day (a good 14 years later) has no idea what was causing the lack of interest in intimacy on his ex's part.  They went to counseling for a while, and he knows that individual counseling on his ex's part revealed something to his ex, but she never divulged what it was.  He thinks it had something to with her father (was never sure if it was abuse, or missing her dead father, or what), but his ex wouldn't tell him.  And she stopped counseling and didn't want to deal with the issue.  She was sleeping on the couch every night where she'd fall asleep watching tv. (She STILL does that, according to his daughter.)  No intimacy, no sex, no explanation, no plan to deal with it, no end in sight.  So he got out.  He knew that he couldn't live that way forever.  His ex has never dated anyone since their then.  I see her and her family quite often - I very much like her.  While not a very feminine woman (neither are her sisters), I don't perceive her to have same sex attraction issues at all.  I have no guess as to what the issue was there, but my ex was smart enough to know that he'd only be torturing himself if he stayed.

Some of the things that you mention are a bit odd, and yet some are not.  I myself love Melissa Etheridge and Tori Amos, but only their music - not... THEM.  I know plenty of women who are into celebrity knowledge and love to show off that they know who got what done cosmetically and who's getting married/divorced/pregnant.  But usually it extends well beyond their bodies, and it also includes men and famous children or animals, too.  Not just women.  You'll never get to the bottom of the issue that way - you're looking for proof (which I get).  However, when it comes down to it, you have proof that your sex life sucks, that she doesn't care that you're unhappy about it, and that it's never going to change.  What do you need proof of WHY for?  Is it going to change the problem any?  No, it won't.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

Thu Sep 29 4:06 am  #26


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Lostdad, I read some of Camerons posts, and found this; I quote:
What's FAR more common, like 1000 to 1, or even 10,000 to 1, are people who hide so deeply in the closet that they appear clueless.  Deep down they know the desire is there but they do everything they can to bury and avoid dealing with it.  Because they've been doing this since puberty, in time they become very skilled at playing dumb, even to the point where they might be able to fool a lie-detector.

For a straight spouse, the only genuinely effective ways to deal with these people are to 1)  not trust the closeted person's words, instead watch their actions, and, 2) TRUST YOUR OWN GUT INSTINCTS.  Our brains pick up all kinds of information that we don't consciously process.  When you have a gut feeling about something, you're not crazy, that's the truth trying to break free.


I feel I reckognize this as highly likely.

I also read more of his posts, althought from a man/gay point of view, I think his logic may apply to a closeted woman as well. And I think she believes she does well, she loves me and have sex with me. It is how things are supposed to be. The inner peace from this, however "artificial", probably seem more doable than the monster she guards within, called truth...

I feel its just like her admiration for women, falsely seem just as that, admiration, not attraction...
Over the years, I feel that may be the reason for many women to become her friend, then they suddenly establish a distance towards her..

Kel,
"that it's never going to change.  What do you need proof of WHY for?  Is it going to change the problem any?  No, it won't."

I know. I painfully know.

And Ynadin, "I agree with the consensus here: don't hang your life/sanity/happiness up, waiting for confirmation of a label (lesbian/gay) or "hard evidence."

I have been adviced the same before, this was a person herself suggesting my wife was lesbian/bisexual.
I feel the bad part falls on me. I will be the culprit, the one breaking our kids' home apart. I dont want to. My parents divorced. It shattered my world into pieces.

I really appreciate your posts. Thanks

     Thread Starter
 

Thu Sep 29 11:51 am  #27


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Steen,

Please know that most if not all of know the very deep need for proof - whether of their actions or the root cause of the actions.  That's completely normal - I don't want you feeling attacked (by me) for wanting that.  As someone who didn't have answers to what was driving the lack of intimacy in my previous marriage, I get it more than you'd ever know.  BUT..... it wasn't the proof that eventually got me unstuck from my situation.  It was realizing that whatever the reason was for all his lack of interest in me didn't matter - I'd tried everything I could do to obtain that interest, and it.didn't.work.  So the final straw was the realization that whatever this was, whatever the reason for it, it was clearly never going to change.  Did I love him?  Yes.  Did I want to be able to say that I had ridden the ups and downs of marriage and remained steadfast?  Yes.  And more than anything, I didn't want to hurt the kids or even my ex by deciding to break up our family.  At the heart of it all, I had good intentions, strong love, caring and concern for all those involved.  It was only when I saw that Iiiiii was supposed to be as important a part of that equation as the rest of them that I saw how lopsided things had become.  And that I began to examine how our lives would play out if I just stayed the course - now knowing that there was no hope of change.  And suddenly I felt like a caged animal.  I simply could not envision choosing to spend the rest of my life this way.  I could not let my kids see a half-happy me every day, and think that was a good mom.  I could not decide to let them see this marriage as their example of what marriage was supposed to be, and what they should be looking for in their own future, and settling for.  And I needed to stop seeing myself as one fifth of my family (2 parents, 3 kids), and instead see myself as fully half of the marriage - from which the rest of the family grew out of.  If the foundation is half broken, why keep trying to hold up a growing house on top of it?

What I learned later on was just how unhappy I had been.  I thought I was doing such a good job of hiding it.  After all, I kept hiding it from myself - pushing it down and trying to make it all not matter.  My ex and I rarely fought, and almost never in front of the kids.  So they weren't being harmed from our lacklustre marriage.  Fast forward years later - to about 4 years ago - a year or so after my ex and I finally separated.  To a time when I was in a healthy, wonderful relationship that emanated outward, when my daughter and son separately told me "Mom, you laugh so much more now.  It's like you're happy now."  I hadn't realized that they'd ever seen me as anything but happy.  I have repeatedly been told by coworkers and friends that they'd never have known anything was ever wrong in my life because I'm always so happy and cheerful and outgoing.  And here my kids were, saying how much different I was now.  My brothers have both told me separately that they've never seen me happy like this in my adult life.  That I'm just a different person now that I'm not saddled with the underlying issues they could never put their finger on.  My sister has been suffering through nearly a decade of issues in her own marriage now, and for years now, my siblings and I have this sense of her being adrift.  You can't even put your finger on how it's being shown to us - she laughs, she enjoys her daughters, she is kind and outgoing.  But there is some light inside that is so dim right now that despite all outward appearance, we can all sense it.  She was SO surprised when I told her recently how evident this "adrift" thing is to those of us who have known her for her whole life.  She had no idea it was showing.  How? What can she do differently?  Nothing.  It's at your core.  And she didn't even know it was showing.  She's been staying in her marriage for her two young daughters, thinking that they're happy too.  That they don't notice.  And maybe they don't.  But they will sure as hell see a difference once she's out of the woods.

Know that I and almost everyone else here have been in your shoes with the need for proof, and many of us for the reason why the issue exists.  And most of us learn the invaluable lesson that it.just.doesn't.matter.  You are dealing with an issue that won't go away.  And it's our job as survivors to make you think about that.  You don't have to see it right now, but we would be remiss to not mention it when we know how important that point is.

I wish you well -

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

Fri Sep 30 5:01 am  #28


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Mine was like that. You couldn't pry him off the computer either. It was email back and forth. I saw some disparaging me (crazy bitchy wife-she is on to me). Mine would get up at 3 or 4 a.m. to email him after saying goodnight at 11:30 p.m. ! They couldn't live without each other. Unrequited love is so much fun? Immature. Mine wasn't careful around me with it. I think he wanted me to end the marriage and I did. 


Rob wrote:

Steen
My lezex in her narcissistic arrogance was very lax on security. But then she was often texting during dinner, in bed, in the bathroom. Thousands of texts a day from her girlfriend..the girlfriend was for all intensive purposes in our house. She couldn't last 50 seconds without texting her lover.
How did I allow this? She wouldn't stop and chose this over me..all caring or respect for me was gone. A 5 year old could figure out what they were texting..
Keep looking for cracks but you may grow weary of it.. its not what we signed up for. I think eventually she'll get sloppy or emboldened so that there can be no question what is going on. Doesn't sound like she cares.

 

 

Fri Oct 14 4:16 am  #29


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Hi again,
Kel, I think you advocate a really essential and important point.

This is how I feel this has culminated lately, and this weekend, I started a heavy talk with my wife.. We are into 3-4 days now of pretty much continous talk in the evenings, everyday life goes steady on, and try not to worry the kids.

Her response is less. Few word, think a lot, and respond to me talking in a slow manner, eyes fixed on me, and she says she is shocked and sorry. I feel her response is missing spontanous reactions, and inner feelings how this feels to her.

I have asked about all issues, situations, indications, everything. I spelled it all out.

At first she responded the next day by returning some of my arguments, trying to neutralize/delete them all, but 4th evening, she admitted, she had taken notice of her own behaviour, and said she could see that she look at women, like I suggested. It was a huge relief, but I made little mess about that, as I want her to feel as our conversation is a "safe place"..

Still, she is a little unclear why she does this, as it is because she looks at things/persons she like, and not because of attraction/excitement...(?) If she admits looking at women, would any typical hetero women stare like she does...? And scratch her wrists, and run the finger across her lips..?

She is seeing a therapist into hypnosis, next week, and wants help to seek if herself is concealing issues/have put a heavy lid on the kettle..

She has also suggested lie detector.
Anyone with experience? (forgive me, have not search for older threads about this). By now, my head feels like having run a marathon this week.

Thanks for the responses :-)

 

     Thread Starter
 

Fri Oct 14 4:48 am  #30


Re: She is not "a lesbian"...

Hello Steen, It's nice to meet you. 

I think by the time there is so much mistrust you are doing lie detector tests in the marriage, it's beyond repair. That in and of itself says she can't be trusted without tests and the resulting evidence. Don't go there. Tell her you don't think that's necessary. Show some confidence in her and what's left between you. 

This is all about trust and you can't have a healthy relationship with anyone on any level without being able to trust them. Endless doubts plague the relationship forever. 

I've read most of what you have authored and I think two things about what you said in your description of her and her behavior. What she has said is haunting and subject to conclusions that may or may not be factual. I can say that when there are other problems in a marriage - like lack of sex, it's likely the two involved are going to jump to conclusions that fit what we imagine might be the truth.

If you love her - then take her at her word until you find much more convincing evidence she prefers women. At this point I think your doubts could be damaging the marriage if she isn't a lesbian. Work on developing better intimacy. It just seems to me you don't have anything that's solid in your conclusion. Women admire other women. How far they take it might or might not mean they would take the admiration to the next level. 

I think your marriage can be repaired but it's going to take some hard work and a long time. 

That's my opinion. I hope you get what you want with her. Keep talking. That is a huge benefit. Don't look back and go over the same things over and over with her. Build SOMETHING NEW that is healthier between you.

Judy



Steen wrote:

Hi again,
Kel, I think you advocate a really essential and important point.

This is how I feel this has culminated lately, and this weekend, I started a heavy talk with my wife.. We are into 3-4 days now of pretty much continous talk in the evenings, everyday life goes steady on, and try not to worry the kids.

Her response is less. Few word, think a lot, and respond to me talking in a slow manner, eyes fixed on me, and she says she is shocked and sorry. I feel her response is missing spontanous reactions, and inner feelings how this feels to her.

I have asked about all issues, situations, indications, everything. I spelled it all out.

At first she responded the next day by returning some of my arguments, trying to neutralize/delete them all, but 4th evening, she admitted, she had taken notice of her own behaviour, and said she could see that she look at women, like I suggested. It was a huge relief, but I made little mess about that, as I want her to feel as our conversation is a "safe place"..

Still, she is a little unclear why she does this, as it is because she looks at things/persons she like, and not because of attraction/excitement...(?) If she admits looking at women, would any typical hetero women stare like she does...? And scratch her wrists, and run the finger across her lips..?

She is seeing a therapist into hypnosis, next week, and wants help to seek if herself is concealing issues/have put a heavy lid on the kettle..

She has also suggested lie detector.
Anyone with experience? (forgive me, have not search for older threads about this). By now, my head feels like having run a marathon this week.

Thanks for the responses :-)

 

 

Last edited by Judy (Fri Oct 14 4:50 am)

 

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